In this conversation, John shares insights into understanding masculine and feminine polarity and how it impacts relationships. He emphasizes the importance of developing depth and sensitivity in order to navigate evolving dynamics and archetypes. The conversation concludes with a discussion on setting boundaries and holding space in relationships. In this conversation, John Wineland and Michael Trainer discuss the importance of authentic communication and attunement in relationships. They explore the power of breath and how it can help us deepen our presence and connection with others. John shares the four core needs of men and the importance of nourishment for the masculine. They also discuss the three pillars of sacred intimacy: intimacy, devotion, and sexual polarity. Finally, they offer advice on how to call forward the ideal partner by embodying the qualities we seek in a relationship.
Summary
In this conversation, John Wineland shares insights into understanding masculine and feminine polarity and how it impacts relationships. He emphasizes the importance of developing depth and sensitivity in order to navigate evolving dynamics and archetypes. The conversation concludes with a discussion on setting boundaries and holding space in relationships. In this conversation, John Wineland and Michael Trainer discuss the importance of authentic communication and attunement in relationships. They explore the power of breath and how it can help us deepen our presence and connection with others. John shares the four core needs of men and the importance of nourishment for the masculine. They also discuss the three pillars of sacred intimacy: intimacy, devotion, and sexual polarity. Finally, they offer advice on how to call forward the ideal partner by embodying the qualities we seek in a relationship. In this conversation, John Wineland discusses his virtual workshop and the benefits it offers. He also acknowledges the importance of balancing virtual and in-person work.
Takeaways
Chapters
09:00 The Work of John Wineland
11:00 Understanding Masculine and Feminine Polarity
19:00 Navigating Evolving Dynamics and Archetypes
25:00 Developing Depth and Sensitivity
32:00 Setting Boundaries and Holding Space
39:02 Authentic Communication and Atunement
41:10 Attunement Tools and Nourishment
43:15 The Power of Breath
48:24 Creating Depth in Relationships
52:05 The Desire for Depth and Arresting Moments
57:32 The Correlation Between Beingness and the World
01:03:27 Pillars of Presence
01:11:26 The Three Pillars of Sacred Intimacy
01:16:34 Calling Forward the Ideal Partner
01:20:44 Introduction to the John Wineland Virtual Workshop
01:21:46 The Benefits of the John Wineland Virtual Workshop
01:22:09 Acknowledging John Wineland's Work
01:24:28 A Personal Question
01:25:25 Balancing Virtual and In-Person Work
01:27:16 Clearing Energetic Courting
01:28:08 Writing a Book
John Wineland (00:00.424)
There's good springs, there's good water. So it really depends on how tied to California you are. But I'm a lifelong, pretty much a lifelong Los Angelian. And I'm not missing LA at all. In fact, when I go back to LA, I'm like, yeah. And I lived in Malibu for the last two years. I was there. And I love my place in Malibu. It was fucking awesome.
Michael Trainer (00:15.21)
You're not, you're not.
Get me out of here.
John Wineland (00:28.669)
It's just a much more livable city, Austin is.
Michael Trainer (00:31.87)
and you don't mind the heat or the sort of the weather differentials, that kind of.
John Wineland (00:35.924)
Oh, the heat's a motherfucker. The heat's a motherfucker. So what most people do, Michael, is they find a way out for a certain period in the summer. So I don't know if you know Stefanos, he gets out, he leaves for almost a month and a half, two months. I spent a lot of time in Colorado, California, Mount Shasta, in the Rockies, and in Europe.
Michael Trainer (00:45.61)
Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yep.
John Wineland (01:01.244)
for the summer so you know so you basically want to get out of there by June you know maybe 4th of July you know maybe spend the 4th of July there and then you get out for July and August and you know and then it's okay it's livable but you know you want to have a plan B but it is you know like I said the community is really beautiful there's a lot going on you know my girlfriend lives in Austin and so that helps but yeah
Michael Trainer (01:01.247)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:15.455)
Yep. Okay.
Michael Trainer (01:31.042)
Do you think to that point, one of the stories I've created, and then we'll get into the show, but one of the stories I've created, granted LA is a city of 10 million people. And I will say, I moved from New York, I lived in New York for quite a while. I found dating in New York to be phenomenal, at least for me at that phase in life. The story I've created in Los Angeles is that dating is not phenomenal. And granted lots of very physically beautiful women, but
John Wineland (01:36.658)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:41.767)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:49.072)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:55.036)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (02:00.298)
just the I think business and relationally I love the lifestyle but I find it to be a flakier culture by and large as compared to say New York City. Austin feels to me like at least most of my like Preston for example right like a lot of my friends that lived here.
John Wineland (02:06.152)
Thank you. Yeah.
John Wineland (02:14.95)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (02:17.142)
are now not only married but have a couple kids. And so for me, I feel like Venice is like the land of arrested development, like 25-year-olds and 55-year-olds pretending to be 25-year-olds. And Austin, I'm like, it's already married and they've got several kids. Is there a middle ground? But it sounds like actually there are people who aren't necessarily have four kids already in Austin, and perhaps it might be a more amenable place to find a partner.
John Wineland (02:21.367)
Yeah.
John Wineland (02:29.084)
Yeah, sure.
John Wineland (02:44.968)
You know, it might be. It might be. I mean, there's a lot of deep, beautiful women in Austin, for sure. And there is a lot of partnerships, you know what I mean? So there's kind of a, I think, like most places, there's both. I just think there's more... I'm just finding it to be a deeper, more open, more, I guess I would call it more available, community space. You know, and I had great friends and I had great community, but...
Michael Trainer (02:46.69)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (02:50.37)
That's great. OK.
Michael Trainer (03:10.167)
Yeah.
John Wineland (03:13.316)
LA is pretty disparate, especially, you know, I lived in Santa Monica for, you know, 10, 15 years and, you know, it's tough. I just never thought I would leave California and now that I have, and one more caveat, I'm actually in my, I have a house in Sedona, Arizona right now. I bought it.
Michael Trainer (03:25.94)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (03:33.21)
Okay. Oh, okay.
John Wineland (03:34.36)
I bought it last year and so I get out of Austin to come here and get into big nature and I love Sedona too. But Sedona has almost no community. And so when I come here, I come here with my partner, we just kind of wrap ourselves in spiritual practice and hiking and all kinds of stuff like that. So I have a good setup.
Michael Trainer (03:45.879)
Right.
Michael Trainer (04:02.242)
That's actually a really beautiful caveat. So basically, Austin as your home base, and then having Sedona as your sort of, let me get out and tap into deep nature. Cause that's the thing, that honestly, what you just hit there, those two considerations sort of partnership, which is beautiful that you created a beautiful partnership. And secondly, the deep nature. Cause I did notice, I stayed at Cal Callahan's ranch up in Spicewood, which I really actually enjoyed. But I...
John Wineland (04:12.857)
Yeah.
John Wineland (04:29.714)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (04:30.726)
I one thing I do love about California, not even LA, but just is just that depth of nature, you know.
John Wineland (04:36.28)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Eastern Sierras are like my spiritual home. You know what I mean? Like I'm going to Yosemite in a couple weeks with my family. So I, and Mount Shasta, I do a lot of teaching in Mount Shasta. So, you know, so it's, so I, the mountains in Northern California are like some of my favorite places on Earth, you know. So that's, I will always kind of go back to that, but.
Michael Trainer (04:49.651)
Yeah!
John Wineland (05:03.568)
You can go back to that. You can go and visit it and you know.
Michael Trainer (05:07.026)
Yeah, fair point. I was just in Yosemite actually. I was up in Tuala... I love Tuala Mio Metals. I love that Eastern Gate. And uh and Buck... I don't know if you've been to Buckeye Hot Springs, but uh it's a gem just outside of Bishop. And you've got the Cold Creek and the cave with the Hot Springs. I did... I... Next time you go, if you ever want like the dream list, you know, I know this is almost blasphemous to say, but I went to the burn this year and it was the it was the year where I was like...
John Wineland (05:12.132)
Yeah, oh, man, I love that place. Yeah, love that place, yeah.
John Wineland (05:24.148)
Mm, mm. Okay, next time I'll go. Next time I'll go.
Michael Trainer (05:36.33)
You know, I had a good experience, no complaints. It was probably my sixth or seventh burn. But I was like, actually, I preferred the sort of the water woman, you know, like my week-long integration in the divine kind of hot springs afterwards. Spoke to me more at this phase in life. So I've got some gems in the Eastern.
John Wineland (05:38.257)
Yeah.
John Wineland (05:49.568)
Yeah.
John Wineland (05:52.901)
Yeah.
John Wineland (05:56.617)
I love it. Love it. So yeah, if you can set yourself up, maybe you rent a cabin in the Eastern Sierras for a month or two, or you go back to LA in the summer, which is not a bad place to be. LA in the summer is not a bad place to be, especially Venice.
Michael Trainer (06:07.48)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (06:12.318)
No, it's great. And I could keep the spot. Yeah, yeah. It is great. I'm definitely feeling internally. I took about a, my father actually passed. I was very fortunate. I have a very close relationship with. And I did a bit of a walkabout. So I was gone for about two years. Mexico, Europe, spent a month in Iceland, spent a month in Turkey, and came back actually to Austin. But in essence, I was there, I think it was two years ago,
John Wineland (06:37.96)
Thanks for watching!
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (06:42.452)
at 9 a.m. and I was like, whoa, okay, you know, this is, this is, this is sporty. So, I, but I think it's time for, for a new test. One last question before we jump into it is your work, the, I, I became friends with Nick Warner and I think he did your embodied masculine
John Wineland (06:46.244)
Yeah.
John Wineland (06:54.973)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (07:06.838)
the training you're about to do next year, I'm guessing that's your kind of the equivalent of your mastermind and whatnot. What does that experience entail as far as that sort of deep immersion? Yeah, exactly.
John Wineland (07:17.988)
The logistics and stuff? Yeah, it's, well actually Nick is coming back for the third year, he's gonna be one of the lead trainers. Yeah, so him and a few other guys that have been in the program for three to six years are kind of my training team. And so Nick will be there a lot. We do two big immersions, one is an off the grid, five day, you know, Death Valley immersion, where we go into this, we go into this.
Michael Trainer (07:25.711)
Amazing. Okay.
Michael Trainer (07:34.571)
Yep.
Michael Trainer (07:44.875)
Mmm.
John Wineland (07:47.336)
totally remote spot called Panamint and set up our own camp. Kind of like a, you know, we set up, we bring in the chef and cold blunges and we kind of do a Burning Man style camp out in the middle of nowhere. It's fucking awesome. And then we do a lot of deep, beautiful work there. And then we do a second one in Mount Shasta a couple months later and it's a six month container.
And, you know, it's my, I love it, man. I mean, we sell it out every year. There's always fantastic men. It's just really a beautiful, you know, entree into, I've kind of consolidated all the work I've done or a lot of the work that I've done into this program. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (08:13.751)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (08:28.214)
Beautiful. Okay.
John Wineland (08:29.224)
that and then the one Nick's in now which is teacher trainer program so a lot of the guys from teacher trainer come to EMLT and do the men's work side or they help teach practices and hold the container so yeah man if you if you're if you're itching to get into it that's a that's a beautiful entree
Michael Trainer (08:47.038)
Yeah, I feel, I don't want to make this about me, but just I think so I where I'm feeling now. I was going to we may talk about this in the show, but in essence, I did during my kind of dark night of the soul.
My father, who was one of the very first men to go through the Mankind project, at the time it was called the New Warriors, shepherded me through my weekend there. And the four years of integration work that I did afterwards with the men, when I lived in Oakland, was really a revelation for me. I haven't really felt, I've done other modalities of work, but I haven't felt called in that same way, but I definitely feel like...
John Wineland (09:06.908)
Yeah.
John Wineland (09:14.277)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (09:29.022)
I'm stepping into a phase of really calling in family and partnership. And I obviously I think that kind of context and container can really serve. So yeah, I would love to learn more and I'll probably reach out on that another time.
John Wineland (09:32.677)
Yeah.
John Wineland (09:37.682)
Yeah.
John Wineland (09:43.434)
Okay, man. Yeah, yeah, no problem. And there's a bunch of information up on my website or you can just reach out to Nick. You know, Nick's been through it, I think it'll be his third year, yeah, yeah.
Michael Trainer (09:48.75)
Great. Yeah, yeah, I will actually. I, yeah, he spoke very highly of it when we spoke. So I'll, I'll reach back out to him. And I think we have, we have to like, is you have a hard stop at, it's 917 my time. So in like one hour.
John Wineland (09:57.873)
Right on.
John Wineland (10:05.16)
Yeah, yeah, I've got an hour. I've got till 1030. I've got it blocked out till 1030. So we're good. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (10:10.894)
Okay, perfect. Okay, perfect. All right, beautiful. Well, let's jump into it. Is there anything I generally like to ask? Obviously, we're going to talk about the book, which I'm now on my third listening to. But, but is there anything you definitively do or do not want to talk about? No? Okay, great. All right, well, let's jump into it. I'm going to take a deep breath and then we'll get going.
John Wineland (10:21.095)
Yeah, that's a lot.
John Wineland (10:27.718)
Oh, pretty open book, yeah.
John Wineland (10:32.805)
Good.
Michael Trainer (10:46.206)
All right, welcome to Peak Mind. I'm your host, Michael Traynor, and I am here today with John Wineland. John, it's an honor to have you on the show.
John Wineland (10:53.468)
Thank you, Michael. Thanks for having me, man.
Michael Trainer (10:55.966)
Yeah, I wanted to first off acknowledge that I've been knowing of your work for some time, but the book that you released from the core has been something I've gone back to and revisited more than most books. And I think in these very tumultuous times,
I think there's solace that I have found in going back and listening to the book time and time again. And I know that you do a lot of work around the masculine, and I know you distinguish that between sort of men and women, so to speak, but could you start by just talking about your notion of polarity as it relates to the masculine and the feminine?
John Wineland (11:30.184)
Thanks, man. Yeah.
John Wineland (11:48.608)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of, you know, it can be a very charged topic and normally it's only charged when people assign gender. And so I've been a big part of my work is to try to tease apart these kind of masculine and feminine.
Michael Trainer (11:56.642)
Mm-hmm.
John Wineland (12:05.072)
qualities that all humans have, regardless of gender, regardless of sexual orientation, regardless of sexual preference, regardless of gender identity. We all have a part of us that is, let's just call it, lives in stillness, prefers deep, spacious, quiet, is...
tethered to or has at least an understanding of consciousness, right, that the unchanging sort of stillness in the universe, right? And you know, and nature reflects this as well, right? When you look at the universal makeup, where basically the universe is basically made up of emptiness and energy.
Michael Trainer (12:52.238)
Hmm. Yeah.
John Wineland (12:53.104)
That's it, right? And so, right down to the atom. Right down to the atom. And so, the masculine in all of us is the part of us that relates to, identifies with, feels at home in that spacious, grounded, expansive consciousness.
Michael Trainer (13:12.194)
Hmm
John Wineland (13:13.)
We all have that in us. We all have consciousness as part of our makeup as humans. We're aware that we're alive and having this moment. We're aware that energy is moving around us. We're aware that we're having a conversation. We're aware. And so that awareness is the essence of our masculine.
So everybody has a masculine essence, that part of us that is unchanging, right? The way my teacher used to describe it is the part of you that is the same now as it was, you know, at four, right? And the part of you that's the same, you know, as, you know, I would like to say even before you were born, the you before you were born. So that masculine essence, we all have it, men, women.
Michael Trainer (13:54.87)
Yeah.
John Wineland (13:58.808)
And then the feminine in us is that in us, which is really identified with energy. All forms of energy, right? Everything from pleasure to emotion to desire. I mean, all of those things to just feeling life's pulse.
And so those of us that are more at home in the pulse of life, in the movement of life, in the expression of life, we relate more to that's the feminine, right? So the, and again, all natural phenomena have a masculine and a feminine essence. I grew up as a Buddhist, and the Buddhists say that the mystic law, God, they would call it God, but the mystic law of the universe has both a latent,
kind of a non-manifest aspect and then a manifest aspect, right? And so that is an example of a spiritual definition of the masculine and the feminine. And so polarity is when one of us, if we're going to just make that arc, is when one of us decides I'm going to amplify my masculine essence, my depth, my ground.
Consciousness my spaciousness my stillness. I'm gonna ground in that and I'm gonna release, you know My attachment to energy and then the other one of us does the opposite I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna amplify the energy that desire the expression the incarnation of divine
love, I'm gonna ground in that, I'm gonna express that. And when two people, however they identify sexually, do that, they create this arc of energy that is known as sexual polarity. And so, you know, it's like, if you think of two magnets,
John Wineland (15:54.336)
Right, so the stronger the pole of each magnet, like literally the more turned up each individual magnet is, the stronger that arc of attraction between the magnets. Right, so in good masculine work and in good feminine work, at least in this framework, the more your magnet is turned up, the more you are actually attracting the opposite pole. And that's, again, that is gender neutral.
You know, it, yeah.
Michael Trainer (16:24.794)
Yeah. And so for those listening, in the context of both relating, I would say to ourselves, but also relating to that which we seek to attract in this context, let's say, you know, that's a masculine and feminine sexual essence, regardless of gender. It seems like conflict arises or
John Wineland (16:37.102)
Okay.
John Wineland (16:43.233)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (16:48.326)
energy dissipates when someone really isn't in their essence, isn't in there for lack of better term, you talk a lot in the book about depth, isn't in their core. And or both are kind of replicating the same polarity. They're not bringing about that balancing, so to speak. Each is operating in the same side of the spectrum.
John Wineland (16:54.172)
Yeah.
John Wineland (16:58.897)
Yeah.
John Wineland (17:14.308)
Yeah, they're more like neutralized magnets, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michael Trainer (17:17.586)
Yeah, exactly. So how do we, you know, because obviously we live in a culture that's rapidly changing, archetypes are changing, you know, as you talk about in the book, and I think we can all acknowledge, you know, thankfully there's, you know, the rise of the feminine and the feminine in the workplace, etc. is all happening in many places.
John Wineland (17:39.816)
Okay.
Michael Trainer (17:40.15)
However, oftentimes, and I can say this speaking to a lot of my female friends who are badasses, powerful women taking care of business, they also still want something, at least many, that is sort of core masculine they're not getting in their life. There's a feminizing oftentimes, if for lack of a better term. I was just with two Swedish women and they were like, in Sweden now it's like...
when a man won't even ever approach you. It's actually totally up to the women now. And there's a sort of a feminizing of that polarity and the women are embodying more of the traditional masculine role. And so I think there's a lot of, for lack of a better term, just a lot of confusion, right? And good people still wanting to do the right thing. I can speak from personal experience. I definitely identify as a masculine in my essence, but I'm also, for lack of a better term,
uh, an empath, highly sensitive person. Like I have a deeply feminine aspects, you know? And so I definitely don't want to, I don't, I don't want to step on any toes of the feminine we're obviously in the context of the me too kind of generation. And, and so it's hard to know how to operate right. Where it's like many of the women I meet are like, actually I want a man to be a man and step into his power. And yet at the same time, there's this heightened sensitivity around like, oh, even if I don't do anything wrong, you know,
John Wineland (18:38.449)
me too.
Michael Trainer (19:02.23)
maybe there's a trigger evoked, and then there's just like a lot of, I think, fear. So how do you see in this kind of very amorphously evolving landscape, we come into that place of depth of who we truly are and kind of navigate gracefully, as best we can, these evolving dynamics and archetypes?
John Wineland (19:23.926)
Yeah.
John Wineland (19:27.168)
Yeah, I mean, well, I write a lot about this in the book and in my second book, which is called The Art of Sacred Intimacy, I write a ton about this. So I think we need to zoom out for just a moment here for your listeners and say that a lot of the changes that have happened over the last 50 years are very healthy.
For example, men becoming more emotionally available, men becoming more intuitive, more empathic, more compassionate, less hard driving. All very good in human development. And the opposite too, like women taking the bull by the horns and claiming their place in the world and pushing forward their missions and driving their own success.
also very healthy. The problem is that when that those sort of those aspects of our masculine and feminine don't translate into a sexually polarized relationship, right? So we should be able to once we learn, you know, for example, I've worked with a lot of women, I ran a women's program for many years, I have a lot of women in...
co-ed programs and when you know a lot of women have that same complaint that you're just talking about like I'm kicking ass all day long I'm leading all day long I don't want to have to lead my relationship all the time too some of the time right but not all the time and so the more powerful a woman is in her let's say professional life what I've seen is the more she needs a deeper
Michael Trainer (20:58.359)
Right.
John Wineland (21:16.496)
masculine presence in her life to take charge of the connection, to deepen the connection, right? Not to lead her in her life or tell her what to do, or you know, she's doing that just fine, but to have a real depth of masculine presence and core, you know, stillness, you would call it, right? To really, she needs a deep man. The.
the more she's leading in her life, the deeper the man she needs. This is what I've seen and heard from hundreds, if not thousands of women. And you can make the opposite argument just to say the more on purpose a man is, right, and he has a masculine essence, right, the more in his mission, you know, on purpose, the more energetic a feminine partner he needs to sort of nourish and balance him.
Michael Trainer (22:08.663)
Mm.
John Wineland (22:14.574)
is what we could call an agility, an energetic agility. Meaning, teaching, you know, I spend a lot of time teaching people how to go from, you know, very deeply still rooted, present, sort of mountain kind of energy, and then into flow, right, or into feeling, right? And ultimately what we're looking for...
is we're not looking for, here's the other distinction, only in sexual moments of, or relational moments, where we want maximum polarity, we're talking about a very small amount of time per week, you know, like, so this framework, this skill set, is for the time that you want to create that deep juice, that really deep energetic arc.
Michael Trainer (22:54.376)
Mm-hmm.
John Wineland (23:03.992)
it's not the rest of the time when you're in the office or taking the kids to school or going to church or whatever you're doing. You're not going to, I mean, you maintain a certain level of that openness and flow, but you amplify it in the moments of energy of relational and sexual expression. So to learn that skill, to be able to go from, for women for example, to be able to go from
John Wineland (23:34.506)
to then going home and being fully expressed as a feminine being, as desire, as yearning, as pleasure, right? That takes an energetic agility that a lot of women are really working hard to learn. And on the opposite side, it takes men, you know, for men to go from being, you know, same kind of thing. You know, you have, so now you've got, we're both.
men and women are both more masculine and more feminine, so we're more the same. We're more the same, which is very healthy and great, except in the bedroom. Except in the bedroom. And so this, and this is what people are now in the last few years are waking up to realize, like, oh yeah, it's great we're more the same, that men and women are like getting more equal in the way of being, but we've lost a certain juice in our...
Michael Trainer (24:07.63)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (24:12.738)
Yeah, right.
John Wineland (24:29.064)
Relational experience and that juice is incredibly important and nourishing to make you know relationships Magic right so that's what we're navigating. I hope that was clear I went on a long diet right, but I wanted to be impacted
Michael Trainer (24:40.258)
totally.
Michael Trainer (24:44.57)
No, no, I think it's super clear. It's really helpful because I think, at least in my listening, what you're talking about is we are in many ways moving more towards, for lack of a better term, equanimity in regards to our relating. The challenge is there are certain essential aspects that thrive in polarity, primarily of which is that sexual chemistry, for lack of a better term.
John Wineland (25:05.54)
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (25:11.41)
And what I like in the distinction you drew, which I hadn't somehow consciously thought about is that it's not necessarily all the time, right? It's not like you've got to be in your...
I used to think about active and passive context of active and passive masculine, active and passive feminine. It's not like you have to be in one all the time. It's actually creating a context, a container for that charge, for example, as I'm understanding it to thrive. And I know a lot of the work that you do is actually around this notion of depth. And that...
John Wineland (25:24.421)
Yeah.
John Wineland (25:41.489)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (25:49.266)
and in fact about a term encouraging that awareness right the breath of like breathing into where you are breathing into what is being called for in the environment or in your partner. How does one how does one train themselves in your in your worldview to know when that moment is wanting to emerge for lack of a better how do we train ourselves in the listening to know the music that wants to sing so to speak.
John Wineland (26:00.517)
Yeah.
John Wineland (26:11.216)
Yeah, yeah.
John Wineland (26:17.324)
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great question. Because that's ultimately the goal, right? And as I say a lot in my book, the goal is integration of our.
our awareness and our sensitivity, you know, our masculine, our awareness, our capacity to be aware, and our capacity to be incredibly sensitive to the environment. And so there are different practices and different modalities, many of them I teach in my programs, but there are many other places to learn these, that both expand any human, man or woman or animal,
any human's capacity to be more sensitive both to our own emotional experience and the experience of the environment and the experience of others, right? Just we can turn our body on to feel more.
right, to feel more. And then we can also turn our body on to deepen into the moment and be in that still space of listening, right? So there's a both are required that integration in all humans is required for wholeness, for a healthy wholeness, right? And quite honestly, very few have it. Very few have it. And so...
Michael Trainer (27:26.702)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (27:31.468)
Yeah.
John Wineland (27:34.952)
especially men, women are ahead of us, women are way ahead of us because they've been working in the realm of, you know, we've been warring, accumulating, dominating, you know, for 99.9% of our human history men have, right? With little pockets of, you know, in spaces of wisdom cultures where they really work on this, but in the western world...
Michael Trainer (27:51.301)
Hehehe
John Wineland (27:59.308)
We've been, we're way behind. So women are ahead of us in this capacity to feel more. So.
All this is going to your question, right? The more we develop our capacity to both be tethered to conscious awareness, to let's call it the field of awareness, Rupert Spira would call it the field of awareness, through which our lives are happening. Like every moment is emerging out of a field of awareness that, so we're aware life is happening, this moment is happening. That field of awareness is the core masculine essence, right?
So the more we're aware, the more we're grounded in that infinite space of awareness, and the more sensitive we are, we will start to receive cues of, oh, her heart is closed, or oh, he's malnourished, or oh,
she has a resentment that needs to be cleared or oh my children are sad or oh my company needs this. Like there's just we're just more ninja you know for lack of a better term right. If you can imagine a ninja like feeling the environment well they fucking train their whole lives to do that.
Michael Trainer (29:12.123)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (29:18.766)
Totally.
John Wineland (29:19.456)
And we don't, we're watching our phones, right? We're watching our, you know? So we literally have to turn up our martial, meditative, yogic capacities to feel more and then be rooted in awareness. So when you're rooted in awareness and you're more sensitive, you're just gonna feel what's off, like what's not open, what's not loving, what's not conscious, what's bound.
And then, I'll give you a concrete example. My girlfriend and I were going to this hike we love here in Sedona yesterday afternoon and I could feel she was just kind of agitated, you know?
Michael Trainer (29:51.598)
Sure.
John Wineland (30:00.34)
and I could feel there was something brewing. And I could feel it because I trained in this and I'm very sensitive to her emotional body. And I'm like, baby, what's going on? Like, I know something seems, and she was like, ah, you know, no, it's nothing big. You know, she didn't wanna bring up a resentment. And I was like, no, there's something there. Like, let's just unpack it. Like, we got a little drive, like, just tell me what's going on. And then she proceeded to tell me, like, you know, something that had been irking her about something that I did or had done a couple of times. And she just like unpacked
it and I listened and I reflected and I owned where she was right and I did all the things I try to do in my book, I try to talk, I was like okay where is she right, I owned that. I didn't get defensive, I didn't make her wrong, I just kind of listened and let it unpack and then by the time we got to the hike we were just, it was all very clear and she was very grateful that I gave space for her to share her truth and you know I knew I knew that was happening because I'd been doing the work for 15 years to feel that it was happening.
And that's a really good example of how this kind of new paradigm of, you know, I would call it leadership, but it could be in a man or a woman or anybody, of really feeling each other and being aware of what will bring the moment, what will bring the connection back to a deeper space of love.
Michael Trainer (31:21.902)
Hmm. I think that was incredibly beautifully articulated. And I like that you gave an example. And what it evokes for me, and I don't know how resonant this will be with those listening, but I imagine for some it will. The question then comes for me.
you know, to what degree is there a presence and so in that feelingness, right? So as and as a deeply feeling man, I will say that what's interesting is I noticed a lot of people. So you actually evoked in your partner and I'm sure there's a myriad of dynamics in which she invokes, etc. But you evoked a context of conversation in which that sort of the unspoken was brought to words and it was released in that and that sort of tension dissipated.
John Wineland (32:00.166)
Yeah.
John Wineland (32:10.002)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (32:10.638)
There's another context in which we enter into a place. I haven't talked about this publicly, but I have a new word that I've discovered, which is what I would call trauma bombing. And I have had an experience lately where I'm sitting with a woman and without context.
John Wineland (32:22.875)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (32:29.41)
um, she will start to share her deepest traumas, you know, like I was just with a woman the other day and she was like, uh, without, you know, I'm not betraying any confidence cause no one knows who she is, but she was talking about, you know, her dad was killed by the mafia and, uh, rape being raped and drugged. And I was like, uh, and I don't even know this woman very well. And I was just like, wow. Okay. So, and for me, the, what then comes up is, uh, um,
John Wineland (32:50.022)
Right.
Michael Trainer (32:57.882)
So I have a tendency in the past of being sort of a martyr and just like, okay, give me all your shit and I'll take it. And what I realized is in my life, I've also, now I'm actually trying to develop healthy boundaries where it's like, and by the way, not to dismiss someone or just cut them off, but you know, where I'm like, wow, you know, and I don't know the proper way to handle this, but what I've been exploring is I really, you know, feel you. I, I deeply empathize and also, um,
John Wineland (33:05.135)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (33:25.77)
I'm a highly sensitive person. So I don't know what to do with all this, but I want to hold space for you, so to speak. And at the same time, like, wow, why am I attracting all these super intense, out of context, like dumpings, for lack of a better term, right? So how does one also, and how does one also effectively, for lack of a better term, hold a boundary so that they can stay? Because what I know, what I know,
John Wineland (33:30.236)
Yeah.
John Wineland (33:42.315)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (33:54.55)
The long-term consequence of that is in some ways, while there is an awareness, it feels like that awareness gets filled with other people's crap, for lack of better terms. So...
John Wineland (34:01.956)
Yeah. Well, so what you just described was her lack of feeling and sensitivity and awareness. So there wasn't, she was more in the pattern, God bless her, right? She was more in the pattern of just dumping her life trauma rather than feeling, is this the moment for that? Can this person handle that? Has he consented to that?
Michael Trainer (34:06.943)
Yeah, please.
Michael Trainer (34:10.945)
Yes.
Michael Trainer (34:16.621)
Hmm.
John Wineland (34:30.348)
And sometimes it's sometimes setting a boundary just sounds like, Hey, I know it sounds like you went through a lot and I'm not available for, I did not concede. You can even say I did not consent to be part of this, you know, this part of the conversation, right? I I'm not open to receiving your life's trauma. We don't know each other well enough, which takes balls, you know, but, but at the same time, you're kind of serving her.
Michael Trainer (34:51.126)
right? Yes, it does.
Michael Trainer (34:58.656)
Yeah.
John Wineland (34:59.404)
In that moment, you are, you're like saying, hey, I understand you wanna share everything with me and I think that's beautiful and this is a little too much information for me right now. Maybe when we get to know each other better and in a different context, I can hear this. But right now, I can feel my nervous system kinda getting jangled and I just wanna, I just wanna ask if we could table this part of our conversation for our second or third or fourth date, something like that.
Michael Trainer (35:11.522)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (35:27.895)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's beautifully said.
John Wineland (35:30.036)
And then how she responds just for the little dating tip for everybody when you set a boundary And you said it kindly and you said it as artfully as possible How she responds will tell you a lot about who she is as a prospective partner or him You know I mean this is for everybody right so that's how I would have done it, but you're pointing to our general lack of awareness, so if someone is incredibly feminine
then what she will want to do is just be in expression a lot. That's just, so feminine men too, I actually have a very strong feminine, I'm very expressive. So the more feminine someone is, the more expression is their way of living, way of being, their priority, what they really, they wanna be fully expressed. If they lack,
a proper masculine. And when I say a proper masculine, I'm not talking about the ability to kick ass and drive and set goals and da da, I'm talking about the awareness piece. So there are different aspects of the masculine. The feminine has taken on...
many, and feminism kind of promoted this, like go into the corporate world, earn as much, you know, take, you know, become just as potent as men are, and again, that's very healthy, but that's only one, that's not actually the highest form of masculinity. The highest form of masculinity is the feeling awareness that we're talking about. And so, to be able to embody
consciousness.
John Wineland (37:16.416)
is the deepest masculine practice, right? To be able to embody love is the deepest feminine practice for all of us, right? So what we're seeing in women just as much, and I know this because I coach a lot of women, is they haven't cultivated, let's say, the higher form of masculine practice. So they're missing awareness of how their emotionality sometimes, or how their expression, and of course men have the same problem too sometimes, right?
Michael Trainer (37:19.928)
Hmm.
John Wineland (37:46.39)
moment. That's a big thing. So what you've seen also in a lot of men is they'll just start dumping their wound as well without being aware of is this opening the space? Is this the proper time and context for this space? So this what I would call sacred masculine practice to cultivate a feeling awareness is not just a men problem.
Michael Trainer (37:47.566)
Hmm.
Michael Trainer (38:01.643)
Yes.
Michael Trainer (38:13.518)
You're right.
John Wineland (38:14.2)
It's a problem with all humans and very few have done the work to cultivate it.
Michael Trainer (38:21.278)
Yeah, you spoke about this in the book. Where in?
you know, a woman will, you talk about a man, my recollection is sort of coming home from work and wanting to dump. And there's a very different distinction between just dumping and saying, you know, I can't remember the exact words you used, but saying, honey, could you, you know, sort of hold, for lack of a better term, hold space for me? I just need, I need a few minutes. Exactly, exactly. I need a few minutes to sort of like, you know, like let go of the day and then I can, you know, sort of step into being fully present.
John Wineland (38:41.86)
Yeah, you get consent.
Michael Trainer (38:54.347)
And what it evokes for me is just a greater courage in, you know...
the word is overused these days, but sort of inauthentic, I think communicating in regards to like, what's up for you and alive for you, which I think.
We also move through these transitions, right? Like you talk about, for example, the workplace and obviously greater equality in the workplace, but like oftentimes people are taking their workplace persona and there isn't really a healthy divide between I walk through the door and then I have, and then I shift into a different aspect or archetype it's like they're bringing, we're bringing, you know, we're bringing these, these parts of our day into the next and that context may actually call for a different aspect of who we are, a different attunement, a different listening.
John Wineland (39:27.132)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (39:42.796)
And yeah, atunement, exactly. And that's actually, that metaphorically, so I've been getting my ass kicked by writing my first book, and it's all about sort of the music of relationship, not necessarily romantic relationship, but what is the song that wants to live in the space between two people. So it's very much about this notion of atunement and how we become instruments for that song. And I feel like,
John Wineland (39:44.856)
Yeah, yeah.
John Wineland (40:02.318)
and
Michael Trainer (40:10.642)
in a lot of what we see in culture, it's like people are just coming in blasting their song, you know, it's like I am Metallica and I'm just, you know, as opposed to...
John Wineland (40:18.752)
I think. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (40:20.626)
like in a symphony realizing, wow, there's a lot of beauty in the silence between the notes. And when is it time for that instrument to come in most beautifully and eloquently? And so I feel like there's a lot of declaring or a lot of soloing without a lot of necessarily symphonic sort of resonance, so to speak. But what we're doing here is we're
John Wineland (40:26.818)
is
John Wineland (40:32.561)
Yeah.
John Wineland (40:39.9)
Yeah.
John Wineland (40:44.993)
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Trainer (40:47.622)
And you talk about some of the tools that I would call attunement tools. For example, I think you talked about the four core needs of men. And I know for me at least, nature is one of my great attuners. Going into you and I were talking before we started about the Eastern Sierra, which is one of my favorite places to get back in tune. But can you talk a little bit about, for the masculine, and if you want to talk about the feminine as well, that'd be beautiful.
John Wineland (41:10.237)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (41:17.396)
back into a sense of attunement or back into a sense of center in ourselves so that we can actually have a greater awareness around what's called for in the moment.
John Wineland (41:29.297)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I would use a different term for what you're describing, which was nourishment, right? And so when we're empty, when we're depleted, when we're burdened, exhausted, overworked, right? It's very hard for us to tune into the environment or others or our loves, you know? But when we're nourished,
Michael Trainer (41:34.038)
Hmm
John Wineland (41:51.28)
we have a lot more capacity to feel, to feel and then to be generous in our response to what other people need. So nourishment for the masculine, I think I outlined four particular ways. One is time alone with no demand.
Michael Trainer (42:06.953)
and
John Wineland (42:08.284)
The masculine in all of us needs to have time with no demand, which is not scrolling social media. It's like just no demand, looking at the ocean. The ocean doesn't want anything from you, and yet she's filling you with her energy, her negative ions, you know what I mean, all of her beauty. Time with no demand, especially in nature, is the other one. Time with other men or masculine beings.
Michael Trainer (42:19.414)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (42:24.59)
totally.
John Wineland (42:38.838)
preferably in nature with no demand. So those things literally uptake our dopamine, uptake our testosterone, literally replenish our tanks, refill our tanks. The fourth one is your feminine partner is a form of nourishment that's always available as well and there are certain ways to work with that. And so that nourishment allows for greater attunement.
Michael Trainer (42:41.461)
Mm-hmm.
John Wineland (43:06.608)
you know if we're paying again if we're paying attention if we've cultivated the we haven't talked about breath yet on this but I just want to make a plug right because the single most important thing that any human can do to become more aware to still their nervous system to turn on their feeling body is breathe is breathe deeply I mean we're always breathing but
Michael Trainer (43:15.326)
I'd love to.
John Wineland (43:33.14)
to consciously expand your breath into your lower abdomen, into your heart area, and really just deepen and slow the breath. If that's all that anybody gets from this podcast is deepen and slow the breath so that you can be more ninja-like, that's great. So, so the tip.
Michael Trainer (43:52.042)
Could you actually, John, and the reason I love that you're bringing this up, I actually felt called to earlier this week based in part on your book, which I want to thank you for.
John Wineland (43:55.877)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (44:02.386)
and also just had an insight in my breathwork class that I was going to do a breathwork certification. So I actually just started my own sort of deep, deep breathwork training. But I would love it, I've done breathwork with Wim Hof and Laird Hamilton and a variety of others. I'd love it if you actually are open to it, even if it's a very basic prompt. But if you could share a breath exercise, and it can be very brief, but that people
John Wineland (44:11.322)
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
John Wineland (44:25.266)
Yeah.
John Wineland (44:29.476)
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Trainer (44:32.68)
or that attunement.
John Wineland (44:33.752)
Yeah, good. And this is super easy. And it really only takes two or three minutes to totally change your neurology, your brain chemistry, to totally ground your body, right? Especially important in heightened forms of stress. So if we imagine, let me just set it up. You can imagine your pelvic bowl, your lower diaphragm, as the bottom of a balloon. And when you fill up a balloon, it expands in all directions. So your diaphragm literally expands in all directions. And so.
as you expand that balloon forward to the sides of your hips, to just under your sacrum, and then you gently pull that balloon back up. And you can start slow, and then just gently pull that balloon back up.
John Wineland (45:24.264)
and then get a little faster and a little deeper.
John Wineland (45:35.08)
So let's just do this for a minute and just keep doing that and see if you can both deepen the breaths and make them a little bit more, you know, just automatic so there's no pause between the inhale and the exhale.
John Wineland (45:55.86)
Just really imagine that balloon, that lower diaphragm, is extending down through your genitals, down, literally touching the earth. And then as you inhale up, you pull.
you pull that earth energy, as you exhale up, you pull that earth energy up from the earth. And so it becomes a very grounding practice of expanding deep, deep breaths down into the earth, kissing the earth, and then exhale, pull that diaphragm up and pull that earth energy up into your lower abdomen, into your genitals. Press down through your hips, down through your knees, down through your feet. Just really feel the contact with the earth as you do this.
Let's just do five more rounds of that, deep and full.
John Wineland (46:55.816)
and exhale all the way out.
John Wineland (47:00.648)
Hold it.
everything get very still. No thought.
John Wineland (47:12.408)
three, two, one, big inhale in.
Feel your lower abdomen like a medicine ball, very heavy.
John Wineland (47:25.672)
Three, two, one, exhale.
And just before you come back online, notice where you feel your awareness in your body. And most of the time doing this is for a couple minutes, you'll actually feel more space in your lower abdomen. You'll feel your center of awareness won't be your thoughts so much as your lower belly.
And that is a very fast way, you know, the lower belly, either in a woman, her womb, lower abdomen is her womb, in the man, it's your don ten, you know, your power center. And so just taking a couple minutes to breathe into that takes us from living here into living here.
Michael Trainer (48:00.686)
Hmm
Michael Trainer (48:12.43)
Hmm. What a beautiful state shift. Is that something that you invite? For example, you know, we talked for example about demarcating space or creating these moments of...
for lack of a better term, I would call it sort of the moreness, the more that wants to live that, that sort of possibility and potential that charge that polarity. Do you ever invite someone to tap into their breath or is that, is there a gracious way to do that? Obviously with a partner you have a context, but it's, it seems like it may, it may be a little too, because sometimes I think, like you said, like just as a conversation can sometimes be a little too intimate, too quickly, perhaps breath could be, if not gracefully done too intimate, too quickly. And at the same time,
John Wineland (48:42.085)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (48:55.264)
it seems like such a powerful state shifter from which to evoke a new tenor of conversation.
John Wineland (49:00.601)
Yeah.
John Wineland (49:05.044)
Yeah, yeah. I think there are contexts where it's appropriate, yeah? But I would always encourage us to start with our own practice. And you know, especially for those watching, if you just did that two or three times a day, your entire nervous system would shift. If you do this when you start to, if you do just deep pelvic, all I'm doing is deep pelvic floor breathing with a little bit of a grounding awareness. But if you, and if you want to really get high...
Michael Trainer (49:09.279)
Yep.
Michael Trainer (49:13.141)
Yeah.
John Wineland (49:32.912)
do it for five minutes at a very rapid and deep pace, and oh my God, you'll feel so good. And so it really is a very, I mean, they're proving this now, that breath does all kinds of things to our parasympathetic nervous system, to our brain chemistry. Like we are literally up-leveling our state in very measurable neurochemical ways very quickly. The problem is, is that most of us don't commit
all day long returning to our deepest breaths. But once we've done something like that, for example, just for a few weeks, it starts to become a normal approach in our, our body just normalizes it and we just breathe deeper all the time.
Then, if you're in, let's say you're on a date, you know, let's say you're on a date, right? And the person you're with is talking very fast or is very animated or you know what I mean? Or very like, you know, just kind of not fully grounded, then this is especially important for the masculine partners, right? If you want to deepen the moment, deepen your breath, and the moment will follow.
Michael Trainer (50:46.594)
Hmm
John Wineland (50:47.296)
If you want to deepen the moment, all you have to do is for, you know, very, you can be covert, you know, just, just deeper, you know, just nice, just expand a little bit, expand it, lower your inhale, just, and your partner.
Michael Trainer (51:00.238)
Hmm.
John Wineland (51:03.408)
will, not because of mirror neurons and just because of the way that we are relationally, will start to catch on eventually. It might take a couple minutes or three minutes, but eventually it will just deepen the space you're in. So I guess that the quote from that is, you know, deepen your breath and then the moment you're in will deepen. And that's true in a relational moment, a sexual moment, when you're out alone in nature, you know, any in it with somebody who's having a trauma experience, all of that is very true.
Michael Trainer (51:22.317)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (51:33.822)
Yeah, you spoke about in the book a moment where, if I'm recalling correctly, you were on actually a date. And you could kind of feel the date moving into the mundane. That was the sort of way I heard it. And at least my recollection was you actually paused it. And you said, wait, you sort of stopped her in the mundane kind of the direction of the downward spiral. And you're like, I want to feel you. And you stepped into that conscious kind of moment.
John Wineland (51:43.46)
Yeah.
John Wineland (51:57.297)
Yeah.
John Wineland (52:02.385)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (52:03.73)
as I understood it, a greater depth. Can you talk a little bit about that desire of the masculine, the feminine, that impetus or desire for depth and how when we feel, we can consciously feel ourselves moving more into the frenetic fray or out of presence, how we can arrest those moments and encourage that greater depth?
John Wineland (52:05.83)
Yeah.
John Wineland (52:26.86)
Yeah, well I think that all humans, regardless of how we identify, right, like we're craving deeper love.
Michael Trainer (52:36.919)
Yes.
John Wineland (52:37.512)
We're craving a deeper love connection with our friends. We're craving a deeper love connection with our lovers, with our children, right? Even with nature, right? With the earth itself. We're craving it. And the key component to that is to slow down. And so, slow your speech. Take a breath in between. Like slow your speech.
plant your feet a little more firmly. There's literally, your body is an instrument for this connection. And when people actually start to learn how to use their body in a moment to instantly shift a connection, like in the story you were just talking about, it's fucking revelatory. It's really, I mean, it really is. You're like, oh shit, like, I didn't know I actually had that much agency.
Michael Trainer (53:25.955)
Hahaha!
Michael Trainer (53:32.567)
Yeah.
John Wineland (53:33.588)
I didn't know that I could take a moment, just by softening my eyes, by slowing my breath, by talking a little bit slower, I could deepen a moment or an experience with somebody else. So I think the thing, I think what I said in that date, and I don't recommend this, was she was talking and I just looked at her, I looked at her eyes and I said, stop talking for a minute.
And then she was kind of shocked and I said, you know, I want to feel you. And then she stopped and we breathed together and looked at each other and smiled and had a beautiful time, right? So I don't recommend that at home, you know, because I could have gotten slapped. But I think we all have this untapped agency that is our body. And when we can learn to again, bring awareness.
to the, let's call it the speed of our nervous system, we instantly have capacity to shift the depth of a conversation, the depth of a connection, the depth of our own feeling body, the depth of our sexual experience. It's fucking magic, really.
Michael Trainer (54:43.339)
Mm-hmm.
John Wineland (54:44.952)
I've learned this from my teacher 15 years ago. It basically changed the whole direction of my life. And I think most people that come to my work, they stay because they have that recognition. Like, oh, this is a skill set that nobody teaches us when we're young, unless we grew up in martial artists, and some with martial artists or yogis or someone really deeply attuned to this. And this is a skill set that as I deepen and as I expand,
everything in my life will start to follow suit. And that's why I still am very much in the work and very much teaching this.
Michael Trainer (55:23.566)
Yeah, the notion of depth or the notion of actually being committed to this work seemingly changes all aspects around you, not just your relating with, for example, your partner, but also your relationship with the world. And there's a lot of talk now about...
John Wineland (55:37.532)
Yeah.
John Wineland (55:43.292)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (55:48.918)
different modalities around the correlation between your beingness and what you create in the world, right? Like, I think we've moved out of an antiquated notion of like doing equal, you know, you know, once I once I accumulate or acquire, I'll be happy, right? Like once I have the house or the certain amount of money that you know. Yeah. Yes. So so this is this is the this is the sort of the secret sauce I feel like because if we're
John Wineland (55:54.386)
Yeah.
John Wineland (55:58.95)
Yeah.
John Wineland (56:04.196)
Can't tell you how many people I coach that are very rich and still very insati-satisfied, yes. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (56:18.038)
For lack of a better term, I just was relistening also to a conversation with Bill Perkins, who's another guy down in Austin that wrote a book called Die with Zero. But what I liked about what he talks about is he's talking about optimizing for fulfillment, which I think is another conversation which is sort of implicit. I think all of us, what we're deeply yearning for is fulfillment in love, in how we show up in the world, in what we're actually looking to create out of this life. But many of us are trying to climb the very wrong ladder
there, so to speak. And it feels to me like some of the tools that you're bringing to bear, a lot of these are ancient practices that you've kind of brought into a modern awareness as well as kind of your own take, if you will, on these polarities and how we can be in the dance in a beautiful way. But to me, and you talk a little bit about this in the book, but...
John Wineland (56:49.381)
Okay.
John Wineland (57:07.08)
Thank you.
Michael Trainer (57:15.47)
But that dance around you unfolds in very different ways, not just in the context of say a partner, but in the context of how the world sort of orients around you. Can you talk a little bit about that, like how the depth of our embodiment correlates to the world outside of us?
John Wineland (57:32.852)
Yeah, yeah, I mean that was also a revelation for me because I came into this work with my teacher, a man named David Data I should mention, right, who, you know, very well known and I worked with him for 15 years.
John Wineland (57:51.004)
So the revelation that I received is when I heard him say like, everything changes when you are deeply resonant with the core aspects of your being. The core aspects of your being at love and consciousness.
And when we are more tapped into, basically what that means is we just remember through our bodies more that we are love and consciousness. That's all it means. We just remember more times a day. Nobody's there all the time unless you're maybe the Dalai Lama or somebody, and I'm sure he has his bad days.
The more we remember that we are love and consciousness, the more the world feels that because there are so few that actually are committed and embodying that.
I might remember that 10% of the day. And that's up from 3% 15 years ago, right? So I'm just like making very incremental, but even that changes my relationship to the, it changes how much I feel the world and how much the world feels me. And so people wanna give you more money.
People trust you more. Romantic partners trust you more. People wanna know what you're doing. People wanna know what you're experiencing. And I have friends who are not teachers, who are not influencers or voices in this. And I have watched their careers skyrocket.
John Wineland (59:34.336)
as they have just gotten deeper into their bodies and into their connection to the divine. It's really quite amazing. And so, you know, I always talk to men about this in particular, because men are always strategizing for success, like the masculine impulses to win. I wanna win with her, I wanna win in the world, I wanna win with money, I wanna win with.
Michael Trainer (59:39.171)
Mmm.
Michael Trainer (59:54.412)
Yeah.
John Wineland (59:58.684)
Influence I want to win I want to win I want to win and we're always like thinking and plotting how to fuck it And I've been telling men like the ultimate strategy to win is presence Presence is a strategy for victory that is very underused You know and it's a really powerful potent thing that you do have control over
Michael Trainer (01:00:10.818)
Yes.
John Wineland (01:00:26.768)
You know, you don't have control over so much of, you know, what presents in the world, but you do have control over your nervous system and your presence and your breath and where you place your awareness. And so...
Michael Trainer (01:00:41.354)
Yes.
John Wineland (01:00:43.824)
That is a strategy that I'm constantly trying to get men to remember. Also trying to remember it myself. And it does. I mean, people just feel you different. And you feel them different.
Michael Trainer (01:00:50.688)
Yep.
Michael Trainer (01:00:55.742)
Yes. What it evokes for me is
is the samurai right like this sort of the code of the samurai obviously many people think of samurais in the context of battle and not to overly romanticize it but what i what i what i love was actually was way more than sort of it's this notion of feeling into obviously there's a combat aspect but there's also the calligraphy there's the tea there's the idea of deeply training so that you are so present to the moment um you are listening to the music
John Wineland (01:01:20.648)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (01:01:30.668)
the music, you know, we live in a world.
John Wineland (01:01:33.216)
They were great florists too. They were great. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:01:35.366)
Yes, yeah, exact great florist. There's a man I loved. I talk about this because I think, unfortunately, you're very familiar, you lived in LA for a long time. There's a lot of what I would call fake shamans out in the world, which makes me very upset. But long and short of it is there's a man I've sat in an E.P. in Sweat Lodge with. That is, his name is Jerry Nelson, and he's Dene. Not far from you in Sedona, I think,
man, the way I describe him is, it's like, imagine you're sitting next to Aretha Franklin on the bus. You'd have no idea unless she started to sing of the mastery that is, that is.
that is present and Jerry you know he didn't wear any feathers there was no adornments trucker's hat t-shirt you know but the depth of his presence was so profound and when he would sit in the in the lodge you know it was like you know he would share stories
John Wineland (01:02:24.721)
Mm.
Michael Trainer (01:02:37.346)
But it wasn't this prescription of like, you know, this is what it was like. He was listening to the words that were being shared. He was listening to the words behind the words. He was listening to the body language. And then he would share such that everyone could warm themselves by the fire of the presence that wasn't even necessarily about him, but it was so profound. And it...
John Wineland (01:02:55.356)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:03:03.666)
you know it when you're in the presence of it, so to speak. But do you have a, I don't wanna say a codified notion, but for those like, wow, you know, like I know when I feel it, but I don't necessarily know how to get there. Do you have, you know, you talk for example, about the pillars of sacred intimacy, which I'd love to talk about in a bit, but.
John Wineland (01:03:08.069)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:03:17.297)
Hmm.
Michael Trainer (01:03:24.906)
Do you have pillars of presence? Like, do you have context around, like, for those listening, like, man, I know it, but like, I forget how to get there. Like, how do I train myself in presence? Like, what is your, what are your sort of pillars of presence, if you will?
John Wineland (01:03:27.792)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:03:39.06)
Yeah, well I would call it, you know, there's kind of a five step, I think it's five or six step process. And I make the distinction between being present, which we could think about in an écartole sort of way, like having a mind awareness of this present moment, right, which we could do by listening, by listening to the sounds of the moment, by really feeling the, you know, the presence of the moment, and by not being in thought, right, that's an écartole, that's being present to the moment.
Michael Trainer (01:03:51.086)
Sure.
Michael Trainer (01:04:07.404)
Yep.
John Wineland (01:04:08.532)
being experienced in the moment. That's different from what I would call embodying presence. So being present.
you know, I would call it one aspect of it. But to embody presence is to literally take present, take the present moment and make it real through your body. That's what embodiment is, to take a concept, whether it's presence or fierce love or devotion or, you know, king, I mean, you can, it's limitless, right?
make it real through your body. It's a shamanic practice of shape-shifting, really, and incarnating in an energy that you consciously choose. So embodied presence is, I'm going to make my body an instrument of this present moment.
Michael Trainer (01:04:45.972)
Mm.
John Wineland (01:04:58.704)
So the way that I would teach men to do that is to first ground, first feel down into the earth, like press your feet into the earth, press your spine into the earth, and make a connection to the earth. Then begin that breath practice that we just did where you start to breathe deeper into your lower abdomen, right? And so now you're grounded and your breath is expanded. Then feel your heart, which is like make a very deep connection to the physical, energetic space of your heart.
really feeling the depth of your heart. Then feel the deepest part of your, of you, like the part of you that has no beginning and no end, right? Then feel out, feel the space.
So it's this five part practice, I outlined it in the book. You ground yourself, you deepen your breath, you connect to your heart, you feel into the deep unchanging nature, the core of you, and then you feel out into the space. And when you do that, you are now literally making your body a transmission of presence versus just sort of making your mind aware of the present moment.
Michael Trainer (01:06:14.731)
Mmm, beautiful.
John Wineland (01:06:15.937)
I hope that makes sense. It's a little esoteric, but I think for most of your people, we'll get what I'm saying.
Michael Trainer (01:06:21.594)
I think so. It feels almost like perhaps this is an improper analogy. I think it's inadequate, but almost like becoming a tuning fork. Like you're both an agent of bringing tune, but you're also in you're also a receiver of frequency and deeply aware.
John Wineland (01:06:36.081)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:06:40.914)
I think that that's the piece and I love that you talk about this in the context of what men need and you and I talked a little bit about Yosemite but I remember very much being in Yosemite and instead of hiking all the time I actually when I take moments where I am in that deep just I'm sitting here for 30 minutes I have no agenda I'm not looking at anything and I remember it was actually at Yosemite when I noticed like the environment
Michael Trainer (01:07:10.928)
me and I became attuned to it, right? The birds started to sing differently. Probably the most poignant example of this was being in Patagonia and I rode with two gauchos and released 50 horses to pasture. And it was my vision, my dream. And I sat for about an hour and slowly the horses started to envelop me. They welcomed me. At first they were kind
John Wineland (01:07:13.585)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:07:40.688)
tune myself, they sort of enveloped me and surrounded me. I couldn't, it was the loudest silence I've ever heard. I couldn't hear a thing. There wasn't a person for miles. And I was surrounded by these horses and I just started to cry. It was just like, I just started bawling. But that's what it's evoked for me. And when you talk about that is those moments of like really entering into the more of the moment and the environment around you.
John Wineland (01:07:50.115)
Mmm.
John Wineland (01:07:53.34)
Mmm. How beautiful.
John Wineland (01:08:09.776)
Yeah, well you become resonant, like a very deep, deep resonance. You are very resonant in that moment with those animals, right? And so we become resonant transmissions of consciousness grounded, I would call it the grounded expanse of consciousness. And which is it, which not only relaxes our nervous system, but literally if you're in a relational moment, it relaxes their nervous system.
Michael Trainer (01:08:14.444)
Yes.
Michael Trainer (01:08:17.77)
Yes.
Michael Trainer (01:08:26.562)
Mmm.
John Wineland (01:08:37.22)
So if we were just gonna tick this up from a resonant moment to a sexually polarized moment, what we would do is we would then begin to feel our feminine partners, I'm talking about the masculine practice here, so we would start to feel our feminine partners, we would actually give them, we would penetrate them with that gift of conscious, expanded, expansive presence. And...
Michael Trainer (01:08:43.497)
Mmm.
John Wineland (01:09:03.724)
And I can tell you from watching this in workshop after workshop after workshop for 15 years that they literally feel a very deep sense of...
Being penetrated can be a charged word, but I'm talking about energetic penetration of consciousness, right? They feel loved, felt, seen in a very, very profound way, and it immediately creates this sort of polarized sexual experience. So we can take, we can both cultivate these capacities, these skills, these are like skills, like learning to play piano, learning to play guitar, these are skills, we can cultivate them.
Michael Trainer (01:09:41.727)
Yes.
John Wineland (01:09:46.05)
and practice them and then either be resonant in a moment like you could
be sitting on a rock above Nevada falls, playing guitar and just expressing resonant beauty with the moment, right? Or you could be looking into a partner's eyes playing guitar and transmitting into her the deepest part of your heart, right, as a gift. So these kind of gifts can be utilized to deepen love.
Michael Trainer (01:09:55.15)
Mm-hmm.
John Wineland (01:10:19.056)
to deepen the connection that we're talking about. And that's why practice, I'm constantly harping on people to actually not just read the book, but actually do the practices in the book. Go to my YouTube page and do practices, go to my virtual workshop and take the practices and do those because you can't play a beautiful guitar unless you practice guitar.
Michael Trainer (01:10:19.749)
Mmm.
Michael Trainer (01:10:43.702)
That's right. Yeah, and I know we're drawing to a close. I want to reiterate kind of that.
The book is absolutely incredible. I can't remember the last book I've read three times in three months. So definitely recommend people listen. I personally listen, but read, listen, get the book. In terms of, I just wanted to, as we draw to a close in the next several minutes, you talk in the book about the three pillars of sacred intimacy. And I know that there are a lot of people out there that will be interested,
John Wineland (01:11:00.498)
Thank you.
John Wineland (01:11:05.381)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:11:20.944)
work in sexuality and polarity and obviously maybe a conversation for another time to go into the fullness of it. But can you talk a little bit about those pillars of sacred intimacy?
John Wineland (01:11:26.012)
Sure. Yeah.
John Wineland (01:11:31.672)
Yeah. So you think of these pillars as holding up a temple, right? And if one of the pillars is cracked or shorter than the other or crumbling, the sacred temple that is your love.
will be weakened. And almost always what I see when I work with couples is that one of these pillars is in that state, right? So the first pillar of sacred intimacy is actually the practice of intimacy, to become resonant with each other, to recognize each other's both humanity, sameness, heart. I have a heart, you have a heart. I get afraid, you get afraid. I have desire, you have desire.
I'm scared sometimes, you're scared. I mean, just to recognize our humanness, but also to recognize the divine nature of each other. You know, that oneness that is at the heart. You know, we are all divine beings, you know, expressing God as self through, you know, we're all that. So intimacy are the practices of recognizing sameness.
and they could be everything from vulnerability, vulnerable communication, intimate communication, to eye gazing and resonant breathing, but they create a sameness, a humanness. The second pillar is devotion.
And devotion means that we are especially devoted to, kind of like my example with Madeline yesterday in the car where I talked about like I could feel she was tense, right? And I didn't necessarily want to hear about her a second, but I knew one was there and you know luckily I try to practice what I preach. I'm devoted to her nervous system, to down regulating her nervous system, to giving clarity
John Wineland (01:13:30.522)
right? And so this is where the rubber meets the road with a lot of people is to be devotional to another's nervous system more than yours in the moment requires a deep generosity, a deep devotion to love, right? And it will often mean you're not getting your way, you're not getting to be right, you're not getting your pillow fluffed in the exact... there's a real
John Wineland (01:13:59.942)
There's a devotion to making sure that they are not in fight or flight, but rather they are grounded and calm and safe in the moment, right? So.
That takes something. And there's a whole, I'm writing a whole second book on these pillars, right? That takes something. And there's a bunch of practices for that. And then the third pillar is what we've been talking about today, which is the arc of sexual polarity that happens when we are properly in the sexual yoga of recognizing our feminine and masculine poles, and then artfully turning those up and playing with that. And when you have all three
Michael Trainer (01:14:16.919)
Oh yeah.
John Wineland (01:14:44.698)
those pillars, you know, well fed and well held, the relationship, the magic in the relationship is just spectacular. And, you know, and I've seen it now in enough couples, right? And so, but again, it takes, it takes a very, there are three different skill sets that each take a tremendous amount of work to cultivate. But when you do, it's pretty spectacular.
Michael Trainer (01:15:12.778)
Wow. So profound. Definitely want to delve deeper. I can't wait to read the second book. For those, this is a little closing out, because I think there's definitely those who are in partnership that will find that presence valuable and that notion of those three pillars. As someone, and this is, we don't have time, necessarily, to go into all of this. But.
John Wineland (01:15:34.047)
Mm.
Michael Trainer (01:15:41.938)
One of the things that I admire about you is it occurs to me that you are continually committed to that process of presence and in that process open to what is evoked, what wants to live. And
I guess one of my questions is in the context of those listening, like myself, to speak a little selfishly, who are looking to call forward, right? And recognize, you know, I had a dear friend of mine, and this is not necessarily that profound, but, you know, they say, oh, you want to call forward your ideal partner, write down all their qualities and then go off and be those things, right? Instead of just saying, okay, I got to look for that outside myself, how can we be those things?
John Wineland (01:16:10.706)
Hmm.
John Wineland (01:16:31.4)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (01:16:34.276)
looking to both embody that aspect of the masculine or feminine depending on where you're where you're you know what you identify with where you're listening for me the masculine but call in a divine feminine counterpart do you have any insights around that bird song so to speak if that if that makes sense
John Wineland (01:16:51.408)
Hmm.
John Wineland (01:16:54.952)
Plenty. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, first of all, I love your friend's suggestion. I think that's beautiful. And I would add, also make a list of the opposite traits. Right, so if you want, I mean, think about it, because we're talking about polarity, right? And so if you want.
Michael Trainer (01:17:04.02)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:17:08.899)
Mmm.
Michael Trainer (01:17:14.976)
Right.
John Wineland (01:17:17.552)
Let's say you want someone who's highly energetic, right? You want a feminine partner that's highly energetic. You're gonna be able to have to cultivate deep stillness. Right? And so in some instances, yeah, of course, we want someone who's devotional, right? But what devotional means to a masculine identified human and what devotional means to a feminine identified human is often different.
So it's important that we think about if we want to. So depending on what you want, you may want to attract someone who's just like you, not super polarized relationship, but just kind of, then that's a different thing. But if you are a masculine identified being and you want to attract a feminine, a deeply feminized being, then deepening in your masculine attributes, right? Learning to deepen.
Learning to deepen in a moment, learning to ground, learning to be able to lead your own nervous system, learning to shepherd your own feminine. I mean, I write about this extensively in the book, but learning the attributes that the, it's called currencies, the currencies of the masculine and building your kingdom, you know, building your kingdom and both internally and externally.
Michael Trainer (01:18:25.186)
Hmm
Michael Trainer (01:18:30.978)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:18:36.6)
And that's what I would say, let them appear. Build your kingdom, internally and externally, and then when they appear, boldly, I'm speaking a lot to men too, but boldly ask. Like wow, like you, I wanna get to know you. That's my dating advice for a lot of men. Skip the apps, build your fucking kingdom, internally and externally, and when you see her in front of you, don't hesitate.
Michael Trainer (01:19:06.003)
Yes!
John Wineland (01:19:06.528)
And for women, it's a very similar thing. If you want a king, build your queendom, but also become the attributes that a very masculine man would value deeply, would want to dedicate his entire life to in devotion.
openness, the capacity to feel, the capacity to bring intuitive wisdom, the capacity to bring magic through the body. All of those things can be cultivated as a feminine partner and when we become the traits that the opposite values...
we just naturally become more valuable, more attractive. It's not rocket science and it's not really physical. It doesn't have to be physical. You can be an incredibly radiant being and not be the typical physical supermodel. You can be incredibly like the guy you were just talking about, a deeply present man and not be the typical physical version of that.
Michael Trainer (01:19:58.234)
Hmm
Michael Trainer (01:20:07.403)
Mmm.
Michael Trainer (01:20:11.03)
Yep. Yes.
John Wineland (01:20:20.499)
So these are highly...
John Wineland (01:20:25.724)
you know, workable skills that we, any human can start to deepen in. And so that would be my, that would be my dating advice to, to close it out.
Michael Trainer (01:20:35.918)
I love it. I love it. John, where can people find you and your work?
John Wineland (01:20:41.316)
Yeah, JohnWeinland.com.
But I want to make a special pitch. I have a, I've spent the last eight years creating a, it's a virtual workshop. It's a subscription. We have about 500 people from all around the world. I do group coaching calls. I have hundreds of hours of practice on that and you can get on it for free. It's pretty cheap, right? It's an easy way to get into the content. And so the John Wineland virtual workshop, streaming workshop, there's a thousand hours of workshop content. I film everywhere.
workshop I do and so there's tons and tons of more content but there's also hundreds of practices that we've clipped from workshops and it's just a push and play thing where you can literally get into the work right away. A lot of 30 something breath practices. You know I'm very proud of it. I'm very proud of it. It's got amazing content on there and amazing practices and so if people resonate with this and they just want to try more the virtual workshop is a great place to start.
Michael Trainer (01:21:32.897)
Amazing.
Michael Trainer (01:21:43.31)
Beautiful. And that's at johnweinland.com.
John Wineland (01:21:46.084)
Yeah, johnweinland.com slash streaming, but if they just do John Weinland Virtual Workshop or they go to my website, they'll see a page for it. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:21:54.25)
John, I want to acknowledge your commitment to the more that wants to live in the masculine and the feminine. And I greatly, greatly appreciate your work and your insights.
John Wineland (01:22:02.748)
Thank you, Michael.
John Wineland (01:22:06.768)
Thank you, man. It's been a nice conversation. Thanks for having me.
Michael Trainer (01:22:09.886)
It's a pleasure. Pause. Final question. You got to jump. But I have one selfish question, which it didn't feel like it was appropriate for the podcast. But. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, do you do your thing?
John Wineland (01:22:19.015)
Can you give me one second? We're off recording. Okay, let me just pee real quick and I'll be right back.
John Wineland (01:24:28.424)
Sorry man, just super committed to drinking lots of water in the morning.
Michael Trainer (01:24:29.662)
Not at all, man. I've been there. Yeah, no, I've been there, been there. The one question I wanted to ask, which isn't necessarily relevant to the podcast, but was evoked and I thought of you is, and I obviously don't know the depth of your work over the years. It occurs to me you've been deep in the work for some time. It feels like, and again, I don't know this to be the case. It feels like...
your work is like popping in a way in the last call it couple years and I could be wrong maybe but more of like a like the digital platform of your work right like it seems like there's like the like you just mentioned at the end like you've got these courses etc. Do you feel like because obviously you do a lot of in person work do you feel like you've figured out the right dance between virtual and in person and second part of that question is
John Wineland (01:25:12.613)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:25:16.656)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:25:21.276)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:25:25.15)
is the book greatly fostering those universes? Because I'm spending a ton of time on a book and it's kicking my ass. And I'm like, is this where I need to be focusing? So anyway, any thoughts you have on that would be greatly appreciated.
John Wineland (01:25:31.478)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:25:38.3)
So, well, I wanted to make the virtual thing something that people who...
You know, either couldn't afford workshops because my workshops are expensive, my programs are more expensive, you know. I wanted to make something accessible so everybody could get the content and the practices. And so, you know, 60 bucks a month is a, you know, a very easy, reasonable thing for people to get into. And so I wanted the, plus, you know, just as a businessman, I wanna have a revenue stream that doesn't require me to fly somewhere for five days
Michael Trainer (01:26:15.246)
Totally.
John Wineland (01:26:16.838)
You know, so it serves both purposes. I'm actually doing a big rebranding on the virtual workshop and I'm doing a big push. It's going to be rebranded the embodied relationship experience and then I'm going to be doing a podcast of the same name starting at the beginning of the year. So I'm making a push to have more of a deeper media.
Michael Trainer (01:26:34.83)
Great.
John Wineland (01:26:41.556)
offering than just a, you know, because I do 10, 11 workshops a year, man. It's a lot of travel. It takes a lot out of me. You know, I'm looking to be a father again, you know, so I'd like to be able to have that. So yeah, that's kind of been my strategy over the last, you know, but it doesn't, I'm still...
Michael Trainer (01:26:42.467)
Yep.
Michael Trainer (01:26:51.274)
Oh yeah.
John Wineland (01:27:06.408)
I'm still teaching 10 workshops this year. Cause I love that. Oh, I love it, yeah. Yeah, I don't think I'll give that up until for another 10 years.
Michael Trainer (01:27:11.263)
You love it.
G-
Do you have good technique? I mean, you must, but to clear the sort of energetic courting and whatnot afterwards in terms of probably all of the different energies that I would imagine. And maybe I'm projecting here, but as a, as, yeah. Exactly.
John Wineland (01:27:24.401)
Peace. Yeah.
John Wineland (01:27:31.648)
Oh yeah, no, there's tons. I'm eating a ton of shadow, man, and I'm unlocking people's, you know, dark sexual desires. And so I usually have a whole series of things that I do afterwards to decompress. And that's part of the reason why I'm in Sedona. I'm actually teaching, you know, Nick will be at our teacher training next week. And so, you know, this place really clears me out very well. But yeah, it's a constant. It's a constant.
Michael Trainer (01:27:38.985)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:27:48.375)
Yep.
Michael Trainer (01:27:56.91)
Great, okay.
John Wineland (01:28:01.412)
uh... practice to continually clean out the stuff that you know comes up in my workshops but it's kind of my uh... you know it's my offering you know so it's my offering so yeah exactly
Michael Trainer (01:28:05.334)
Yep.
Michael Trainer (01:28:08.52)
Yeah
Michael Trainer (01:28:14.186)
Yeah, it's your Dharma, so to speak. And then final question, the book, do you work with a ghostwriter? Do you do it all yourself to the degree you're willing to share? And how have you found? Because I've been working on mine, I'll be honest, for five years. And I've got 90,000 words, but it ain't it. So the whole, so.
John Wineland (01:28:24.76)
I did all my stuff.
John Wineland (01:28:31.122)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (01:28:36.07)
I haven't shared this publicly, but the whole actually the title currently is resonance. So you mentioned that word so many times. So it's actually about that notion of like how we create that resonance. And I think some of the topics are very unique and the framing. But
John Wineland (01:28:40.705)
Uh huh. Yeah.
John Wineland (01:28:46.382)
Awesome.
Michael Trainer (01:28:51.446)
But honestly, I'm really butting up against it in terms of, but your book was very eloquent. And I really felt like it was the right length. It works really well. Obviously, it feeds into the greater ecosystem of your broader universe. But do you have any insights around fucking just finishing it or how you work? Are you a morning? Good editor, OK. Yep.
John Wineland (01:29:02.44)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:29:06.428)
Right.
John Wineland (01:29:10.812)
Get a good editor. Get a good editor. If you don't have a good editor yet, find one, you know, and really commit to that. I have an editor, my editor, you know, who I worked with at Sounds True is also editing my second book. And so he has just been really...
Michael Trainer (01:29:17.791)
Yep. Okay.
Michael Trainer (01:29:25.995)
Yep.
John Wineland (01:29:32.464)
really good. I send him 30 pages a month and he sends me notes and you know and we just keep rolling and so by the end of our nine month time I'll have you know 270, 300 pages and we'll edit that down and make it something. So having an editor really helped and just so you know what became from the core I'd been working on for five years as well and it wasn't until I got a book deal and had a big deadline that you know that it got done.
Michael Trainer (01:29:55.093)
Oh good.
Michael Trainer (01:29:58.945)
Yup.
Michael Trainer (01:30:02.943)
Yeah, okay.
John Wineland (01:30:04.18)
So creating structure for yourself with the accountability of an editor is really important.
Michael Trainer (01:30:09.33)
Okay, that's beautiful. Yeah, I have the deal. The edit what I haven't had yet is the editor relationship. Like the editors like, oh, you I just submitted it thinking it was close to Don and she's like, you need to get like an editor. And I was like, well, I thought that's what you are. But like, but in essence, that's neither here nor there. Basically what I'm hearing from you is find an editor and then get in the process. Um, yeah, okay.
John Wineland (01:30:15.399)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:30:23.187)
Yeah.
John Wineland (01:30:31.)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you've got enough, man. They can help, they can trim it and help all that. But yeah, getting a really good editor is the key, yeah. All right, hey listen man, I gotta run, but so good to talk to you, Michael. Great to meet you, man, and hopefully we'll meet you in person. All right.
Michael Trainer (01:30:39.47)
Okay, beautiful. John, man, really appreciate you. Yeah. Likewise, man. I hope so too. Take care now.