What can life be like when you take a break from or quick drinking Alcohol? I share my experience and interview James Swanwick on the epic upgrades that come with a life without alcohol.
Experience the multitude of benefits that come with life without alcohol:
Check out James and his work:
https://www.jamesswanwick.com
Feedback: @michaeltrainer @jamesswanwick
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Unveiling the Dark Side: Exploring the Negative Effects of Alcohol
[Physical Health]
[Mental Health]
[Social and Personal Impact]
[Public Safety]
[Conclusion]
It's crucial to recognize and understand the negative effects of alcohol, not to demonize it, but to encourage responsible drinking and promote awareness of the potential consequences on physical and mental well-being, relationships, and society as a whole.
Thank you for joining us on this insightful journey. Remember, knowledge is a powerful tool, and being informed about the effects of alcohol empowers us to make healthier choices. Stay tuned for more thought-provoking discussions on Peak Mind.
Michael Trainer (00:03.49)
All right, James, can you hear me? Excellent. And how do you enunciate your name correctly? Your last name? Swannett. OK, cool. All right, you ready to jump into it? Anything you definitely do or do not want to talk about, I always ask that before.
James Swanwick (00:05.838)
Yes.
James Swanwick (00:11.173)
Bwannach.
James Swanwick (00:20.629)
I can talk anything you want about alcohol and sleep. And now everything's open, ready to go. What's the demographic of your listener?
Michael Trainer (00:25.79)
Okay, great.
Michael Trainer (00:30.366)
It's all over the map, man. So with the podcast, it's like 25 to 35 year olds, pretty balanced gender wise. With my email list, honestly, because I built it largely through like a Deepak Chopra events, it skews older. But I will say that I think anecdotally giving up drinking, I did a solo episode on it is definitely of interest and it's part of what.
James Swanwick (00:32.054)
Okay, cool.
James Swanwick (00:45.549)
Okay, great. No worries.
Michael Trainer (00:58.61)
was a catalyst for me reaching out. All right, let's jump into it.
James Swanwick (01:01.933)
Okay, great.
Michael Trainer (01:05.342)
Welcome to Peak Mind. I'm your host, Michael Treanor, and I'm here with an old friend, James Swannick. James, it's a pleasure to have you on the show, my man.
James Swanwick (01:14.521)
Thank you for allowing me to be here, Michael. Great to see you again.
Michael Trainer (01:18.498)
So for context, I knew James when he lived in Los Angeles, which he no longer does, and was in the, well, I would call it the sort of biohacking community, had developed some incredible blue light blocking glasses before they were fashionable. And I've noticed for the last year, two years, maybe longer, that you have been.
for lack of a better term, sort of beating the drum of giving up alcohol and its benefits or reducing alcohol and its benefits. And that coincided with the time during the pandemic when I took a year and a half off alcohol. I wound up actually starting drinking again and now have been off again for almost a year. But I wanted to bring you on because I'm deeply curious about the long-term benefits of giving up alcohol.
And I know that my listeners, many of them are curious because I've gotten message about this. So let's start with what prompted you to get into this journey, James, and what anecdotal feedback have you received as a result?
James Swanwick (02:30.157)
Well, I am 48 as we're recording this and I was a socially acceptable drinker back in my hometown of Brisbane, Australia from my late teens, right up until when I left Australia in my early 30s. So I would drink a couple of drinks most nights of the week. On weekends, I would drink heavily. But for the most part over almost 20 years, I was a socially acceptable drinker, you know, had a beer or two had a couple of wines, maybe some night I had a bottle.
I wasn't getting super drunk or even drunk. I didn't get arrested. I didn't have a DUI. I didn't wake up in a ditch. I didn't have that like rock bottom moment. And all of society said that my drinking habits were okay. But I got to age 35, I was in Austin, Texas in 2010. And I went out to a party at the annual South by Southwest festival. And I had two gin and tonics, very innocent Bombay Sapphire gin and tonics. I went back to my hotel.
In Austin went to sleep and when I woke up in the morning, I just felt blah, you know And by blah, I mean like a six out of ten not a not a three or two Not an eight or a nine, but just mediocre and average in every way. I looked in the mirror. I My skin was weathered. I had some fat rolls Hanging over my pajamas that I was sleeping in My face was kind of bloated and I just realized that
this almost 20 years of drinking habits that caught up with me, you know, I was probably carrying about 2530 pounds that I shouldn't have been. And so I went to this I hop, which is an international house of pancakes right next door to this hotel, I was staying in an Austin and I sat in the I hop and I looked around and I go, what am I doing in an I hop? And that was when I kind of made the decision that was, I wouldn't say it was my rock bottom moment. But it was the defining moment where I said, I'm going to take a 30 day break from alcohol.
just to see what happens, see if I can feel better than this. And that's what I did. I stopped drinking for 30 days. I lost 13 pounds. It just fell off me. I slept better. I looked better. At that time, I had an opportunity to audition to become a Sports Center anchor on ESPN. And to my utter amazement, they gave me the job. I attracted this beautiful woman into my life and the caliber of my acquaintances started to noticeably improve. And I just thought, wow, there's something to this.
James Swanwick (04:50.669)
And so I just kept going and going and going. And I got to a year alcohol free and in a year I'd lost 25 pounds. looked great. Sleeping great had clarity and focus and energy was happy professionally happy in my friendships in my romantic relationship. And I just thought, I think I'll just keep on going. And so I did and I haven't drunk since been 13 and a half years without drinking and some years ago back in 2015.
I started a business, it's now called alcohol free lifestyle. We support people who want to have a better relationship with alcohol. And just to answer your initial question is what are the long-term benefits of not drinking? It's just a better quality of life, a higher quality of life. You've got clarity, focus, energy, you're less irritable, less stressed, less chance of diabetes, less chance of cancer, less chance of dying a miserable death. We're all gonna die.
But you could probably die the way that nature intended you to die rather than a way that we have inflicted it upon us by drinking attractively packaged poison. So that's how I would respond to that.
Michael Trainer (05:58.15)
I love how you put that. I remember seeing that on one of your videos where you called alcohol attractively packaged poison. And I had never heard it described in that way. And it really resonated with me because I thought to myself, alcohol has had the benefit of an incredible branding campaign over the years, right? Like in the 60s, it was cigarettes, you know, and of course, now we know that those are horrible for you.
alcohol I feel like is still kind of in a little bit, I think it's losing a bit of its luster, but it still has, you know, it's still a way for a lot of people to make a lot of money. So you still have major celebrities endorsing alcohol brands. And it still is the, in many ways, the socially accepted lubricant, which thankfully is changing in certain places, but let's.
let's call it what it is. It's still you know, there's still a lot of bars, there's still a lot of play that was walking in Santa Monica yesterday. And I love sports. But I but I was like, yeah, you know, it just there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of a brand is often built by association. And unfortunately, there's still a lot of people who have an exalted brand, whether that be sports teams, celebrities, athletes that are still endorsing this lifestyle, alcohol, etc. So it's still kind of giving this attractive leap.
package poison a bit more of a step up. However, I am seeing a lot more people declaring themselves alcohol free and a lot more, you know, unfortunately, because we live in a celeb obsessed culture, you know, a lot more of that is getting buzz, you know, from Brad Pitt, stopping drinking to, you know, I think, you know, there's a variety of people that I've seen, you probably know a lot more of them. But I go, for example, Bradley Cooper,
I watched that in David Bowie. And I can't remember if this was on your channel or I just saw it online. But people I really respect, highly creative people who talked about their journey and how they would never even consider going back to alcohol and how they attributed all of their success to the fact that they actually took the step away from drinking. Can you talk a little bit about that, about how...
James Swanwick (07:57.933)
It was.
Michael Trainer (08:19.702)
the narrative around alcohol is changing and what you're seeing as a, as it relates to people who have committed to an alcohol free lifestyle, what kind of feedback you're getting from them as a result, as they embark on their journey.
James Swanwick (08:34.981)
Alcohol's reputation is crumbling. In the fifties, you mentioned reference that, you know, we used to think that cigarettes were safe. In fact, doctors would be on billboards, um, advertising their favorite cigarette. Now we look back at that time now, just, and we just think, what were we thinking? You know, that was just crazy thinking. And my prediction is that in 20 to 30 more years, two or three decades, we're going to look back on alcohol. Today.
with the same level of disdain that we do cigarettes. So it'll probably take another 20, 30 years, but we're heading that way. Never before have people drunk less. Millennials are turning their backs on alcohol like never before. There is a plethora of alcohol-free alternatives now on the market. And some of these companies who are doing alcohol-free beer and alcohol-free spritzes have huge valuations in the hundreds of millions of dollars, incredibly popular.
There's more education now in the market with social media, obviously now you can and the internet now you can actually have access to the latest studies, which demonstrate that no alcohol is good for you. I mean, there's this ridiculous set of studies from the 80s that suggest that a glass of wine a day is good for your heart health. Now, in actual fact, about two years ago, there was a study out of the University of Victoria in Canada by a professor named Tim Stockwell.
previously published studies on alcohol, involving 5 million participants. Okay. And what he found was that those 100 studies, almost all of them were either biased or skewed. In other words, all of that data was influenced by liquor companies, people who had a vested interest in alcohol continuing in society. Now that should be the biggest wake up call to all of us.
Also, 2022 study came out of the UK, they looked at 35,000 middle aged Brits. And what they found was that even one seemingly innocent drink per night, that's just seven standard drinks a week, was enough to cause gray and white matter degeneration in the brain. In other words, one drink a night can cause brain degeneration.
James Swanwick (10:53.849)
But yet cultural conditioning the way it is, it's like, ah, we'll be fine. Just have a drink. I'm just having an innocent glass of wine. I'm just having a couple beers. Big deal. Our life is there to be lived. Come on, you know, just, it's fine. You'll be all right. Hey, what about that study that says that a glass of wine is good for your heart and on and on and on it goes. And there are smiling assassins everywhere. And smiling assassins is the waiter or the waitress who smiles as they say, Hey, can I get you a drink? It's your friends who greet you.
at the house party or the dinner party, they go, Oh, hi, Michael. Hi, James. How are you? Hey, can I get you a drink? We got beer, we got what can I get you? Now, they're trying to be a good host, right? They do have your best intentions at heart because they want you to have a good time. But nevertheless, they're assassinating you, right? Because they're offering you this poison, which has been proven repeatedly, especially in recent years, to increase the likelihood of cancer, increase the likelihood of sleep problems, increase the likelihood of
uh, increase, I'm sorry, speed up the aging process, whether the skin, um, uh, more likely to create irritation, stress, anxiety, prolong irritation, stress, and anxiety lead to marital strain and divorce parents not being present with their children, um, uh, car crashes, accidents, all these kinds of things that are even more, you know, more dramatic that people think, oh, the only problem is, is for those really dramatic instances.
No, it's this is like death by 1000 cuts. It's like you might not notice it right there as you're drinking over three, four years, a decade. But boy, do you notice it when you get into your 40s 50s 60s where that starts to catch up with you. You asked for some anecdotal evidence. Yeah, you mentioned Bradley Cooper. You know, I interviewed Bradley Cooper back in 2007 or eight when the movie The Hangover was being promoted. I used to be a Hollywood journalist. So I would interview movie stars.
Michael Trainer (12:23.115)
Mmm
James Swanwick (12:50.477)
And back then I was still drinking. And I remember I met him at the SLS hotel in Beverly Hills. And I was in a suite and I was interviewing him about the hangover. And I said, what's your favorite drink? And he said, oh, no, I don't drink. I stopped like five, six years ago. And I said, really? And I remember thinking, God, Bradley Cooper, this is not the kind of guy I'd wanna hang out with. Because, you know, I was a drinker and I always associated having a good time with drinking. And boy was I...
wrong in that assertion because Bradley Cooper is now, you know, universally admired by men and women. He's got, I think he's had four or five Oscar nominations now. Um, he's very handsome. He seems, you know, he's very successful professionally. And now I don't think he's drunk and probably must be, must be 17 or 18 years. Um, and then my clients, you know, we coach, um, mostly business owners and executives who are middle age. They tend to be our, our clients who come to us.
Anecdotally, it's helped save their marriage, helped them have a better marriage. One gentleman made a quarter of a million dollars more income in the 90 days that he was with us, which he credits to the clarity and the focus and the energy that he had. Real estate brokers make an extra deal on average per month, which ends up being 12 additional deals per year, which can add up to a quarter of a million dollars or half a million dollars in additional revenue. Again, credited to the clarity and the focus and the good sleep and the energy that they have.
from not consuming attractively packaged poison.
Michael Trainer (14:18.098)
Yeah, I totally resonate with that. I mean, I'll be very honest. So I feel like if I were still 18 and could down, so I don't have like necessarily a moral argument against alcohol. And if I were still 18 and could crush three, four drinks and wake up without any seemingly any effects the next morning, I'd probably still be drinking. And at the same time, that isn't
I realized for myself, I was like, besides all the research, Andrew Huberman coming out and saying, you know, there is no like one glass, like all the things you just shared in regards to the fallacies of a little bit is fine moderation, etc. Now we know that actually any amount of drinking damages the brain and our sleep most prominently. I mean, I like you, I think have an aura ring. And now that you can actually see, of course, you know, anecdotally, you feel up you wake up, you feel a little bit off or a little bit foggy or feel like crap.
But now you can actually see your HRV just go absolutely tanked after a drink or two. For me, that's that was the catalyst because I'm like I'm doing all these other things in life to optimize my life. Right. Like I'm going to exercise. I'm you know, I you know, I live in Venice. I do the cold plunge and the song I do. I do all these different activities. Yet at the same time, at least a couple of years ago, I was still drinking. And what I realized was one of the greatest levers taken.
you know, together that would that would have the greatest consequence on my life. You know, a friend asked me a question, which was a really potent question. And this was actually about the same time you were interviewing Bradley Cooper. So this is back when I was living in New York doing global Citizen Festival. And she asked me one of the most powerful questions I've been asked in my life, which is, if there were one thing that you were to give up, and one thing that you were to add to your life, that would have that one saw really,
reiterate that if there was one thing you could give up and one thing you could add to your life that taken together would have the most profound Transformative impact. What would it be? And For me and I encourage anyone listening to ask yourself the same question for me giving up was giving up drinking alcohol, which at the time I was still drinking and Adding was a profound committed loving relationship, which I'm still working on but I knew that those two
Michael Trainer (16:44.962)
taken together would have the most profound impact. And I will say for me, giving up alcohol, the periods I'm proudest of in my life are periods where I was not drinking alcohol because the degree of productivity and what I was able to achieve was profound. So I totally, totally resonate with that. As it relates to sleep, I'd love for you to go a little bit deeper on sleep because it does seem like, you know, we're now seeing that sleep, even the military saying like,
you know, sleep, losing sleep can have is the thing that they're most scared about, right? Because people make such poor decisions without sleep, it's actually now a form of torture. But, but we also now know, I don't know if you read Matthew Walker's Why We Sleep, we also know that the accumulation of bad sleep has prolonged deleterious consequences. So it's not just one night and then you catch back up, you know, three days later, talk to me a little bit about sleep and the effects that alcohol have on sleep.
James Swanwick (17:44.589)
You're better off drinking for breakfast than you are anywhere close to bedtime if sleep is your goal. Because at least if you have wine or beer with your cornflakes or toast in the morning, your body will have 16 hours to work to get rid of the toxins from the body. The problem is, is that most people are drinking towards the latter part of the day and into the evening close to sleep time. And when you do that, you're essentially clocking your body in for a day's work.
Right now, you remember, you know, back in the day, they got the factories, I'm sure they still do have this now where you turn up for work and you'd clock in and you'd punch your card to show that you got there at 859am or 9am. And then when you left at 530 or six, you clock your card. Remember that used to happen a lot in the day, right? So you're clocking in for the day and you're clocking out for the day. Now in the modern world, every time you pour yourself a drink at nighttime, you are clocking in for the night.
you're about to go to work. You're putting your body to work at a time when your body doesn't want to go to work. Your body wants to sleep and rest. Now, all these people in society mistakenly believe that having a drink or two at night helps them relax and calm down and helps them go to sleep. Now, I don't dispute that drinking
a wine or two or a couple of beers can help you fall asleep. A more accurate description might be help you to pass out. But let's just say that we give the benefit of the doubt and say a couple of drinks helps you fall asleep. Okay, that's great. Good. Helps you, helps you fall asleep. The problem is, is that the quality of your sleep is now so compromised that it has completely destroyed any benefits of being able to fall asleep from drinking the alcohol.
As you just referenced there, we can track it now with an aura ring, right, or something similar. When you drink that alcohol, you may fall asleep, but you spend less time in that deep restorative phase of sleep less time in that REM sleep, the body is working, the body is working to break down the toxins that you've just ingested. At a time where the natural flow of things is the body wants to rest. It's like going to the gym.
James Swanwick (20:08.973)
You do a big solid workout, you're like, you can't wait to get to like an hour so you can rest, go and have some food, have a shower, you know, rest. But what most human beings are doing is they go into the gym, they're working out. And then they have the drink. And then it's like going straight back into the gym and having to do another workout again. That's insanity. But yet we do it. We do it, because it's the way it's just been done. So as it relates to sleep,
It is just an absolute sleep destroyer. That as well as blue light staring into screens. And here's the other thing people make a mistake on. They mistakenly think that, oh, if I just don't stare into screens, I'll be able to protect my eyes from the blue light. No, it's your bathroom light, it's your kitchen light, microwave light, bedside table light, reading light, speedometer light.
traffic lights, streetlights, and McDonald's golden arches lights as you're driving along the highway. All of that light messes with your sleep. Same thing, right? Like the body, with the drinking analogy, right, you're putting the body to work, you're clocking in for the night, when you drink alcohol close to bedtime, like putting your body to work. Same thing with light, artificial light at night, you're essentially telling the mind and body it's not nighttime, it's still daytime. So therefore don't release
the natural flow of melatonin into your body, keep releasing daytime hormones. And this is going on at like 1011 o'clock at night when you when your body's ready to naturally fall asleep and rest. So, you know, I mean, look,
This actually isn't rocket science. It's so simple. And I would just invite your listeners to not take my word for it. Do your own research, Google what I've said, you know, like, and, and here's, here's the best person you can trust yourself. And deep down, you know, that when you have a couple of drinks before bedtime, you wake up feeling like shit, or better than that, maybe you feel irritable or stressed or anxious.
James Swanwick (22:23.937)
And you know, when you're staring in the screens at night, you wake up the next morning, you're tired and lethargic, right? So don't trust me, trust your own body. But please, for the love of God, educate yourself, and stop trying to cling on to this, I just have to have a drink, I have to I have to I have to, because otherwise, I'll be boring without it, or I won't be able to go to sleep. Just eliminate that thinking, try a new way of thinking and embody a much healthier lifestyle. Because I tell you,
I've had a life with alcohol and a life without and without is so much better.
Michael Trainer (22:57.406)
Totally agree. I did a cost, basically a cost benefit analysis. And I was like, what's the cost? And taking out, I mean, there's a lot of different costs. People can do this in their own experience. But the sleep alone and the consequence of getting subprime sleep for me, and like, why would I even, let's just say I have a night of drinking. And let's say, which sometimes is the case, right? Like, which is oftentimes what we remember. Say I have an epic night out.
which alcohol happened to be a part of, right? That leads me to, let's say I have four or five amazing hours of fun. That's the best case scenario. Oftentimes you drink and you actually don't even have that much fun and the next day is ruined. But for me at least, the next day was ruined and even the day after sometimes, because I didn't sleep well, is compromised. You know, were those four or five hours of fun in the best case scenario worth me ruining two days? Definitely not.
that was kind of what hit me. I was like, I am I'm committed to no more hangovers. And oftentimes, I would drink and I didn't even have that great a time. And it cost me, you know, a day or two afterwards. But but let's talk a little bit about alternatives, because I think the other piece that came to my mind, again, speaking very honestly, because I'm committed to shoot straight to the listeners was I was like, well, I'm happy to go alcohol free, for example, once I'm in a relationship.
And or, you know, once I once I'm married, what have what have you dating, for example, without drinking seems really tricky, because a lot of people associate, you know, a lot of times, at least in my former life, living in New York, people be like, Oh, let's grab a drink, you know, there's, there's a lot of people who associate courtship, meeting people with alcohol. Now, I was scared of going alcohol free, because I was like, it's gonna be harder to date, I'm gonna have to describe that to my the woman I'm with.
Is she going to think I'm an alcoholic? I've subsequently found, gratefully, that dating is way better. And also, there's no blinders, right? So if someone is definitely not a match, in the past, they'd be like, oh, well, if I have a drink or two, at least still it'd be passable and I can get by. Now, it's like, if I'm not drinking it and this person is not resonant, right? I live in LA, there's a lot of narcissists. I've been on dates where literally a woman has not asked me a single question.
Michael Trainer (25:22.07)
the entire evening and I know girlfriends where that's not gender based where guys have done the same thing. But I can't pass through that like now I'm like, thank you so much grateful for your time and gracefully find a way to exit but in other words, I don't waste my time. Which I think alcohol enabled a greater mediocrity and an ability to pass through painful experiences, but just create more pain in my life.
And now if it's not a, if it's not a resonant match, uh, I'm way more apt to end it quickly. And so I'm finding that it's helping me in my discernment. And I'm also doing much healthier activities to get to know someone. I'll go for a hike. I'll go for a walk on the beach. I'll do, you know, cold plunging sauna. I'll, I'll do various different things that I wouldn't have done instead of going to a bar to get a drink.
Talk to me a little bit about what you found because I know you work with people. Obviously you have your own experiences in terms of what an alcohol-free lifestyle looks like and some of the alternatives that you could consider when you think about, okay, well, what's my barrier to really giving this a go?
James Swanwick (26:36.965)
Well, people often mistakenly believe that if they tell their date that they're not drinking that their date is going to think that they're an alcoholic or think that they've got a problem or think that they're dull or uninteresting. In my experience, and certainly the experience of my clients is that the opposite is true. And that is the date, all of a sudden, thinks, wow, this date that I'm sitting across is like this really elevated man or woman, wow, they've really got their shit together.
And the date who is drinking is now feeling subconscious about you and what you're thinking about them. So you've actually got the power play, not that we're trying to create a power play here, but you're actually in the position as a non-drinker of being a superior man or a superior woman. But people go into this thinking that they've got, they're the inferior man or the inferior woman because they're not drinking.
Now I can tell you the moment that I stopped drinking alcohol, the caliber of women and romantic connection that I generated in my life just jumped up like, I don't know, I'd be exaggerating to say tenfold just let's just say that I just noticeably started attracting a higher caliber of person into my life. I started being the type of person who I wanted to attract. I started being open. I was health
conscious. I was happier, I was less stressed. And what I found is I just started to generate those kind of people in my life who were also healthy, and not stressed, and either didn't drink at all or drink on occasion. And certainly they didn't drink as a necessity for social interaction. Right. When I was dating alcohol free, 90% of the dates that I would suggest
were daytime dates, a walk, a coffee or juice. You mentioned a hike, a hike. So I didn't even really have to broach the topic of alcohol. Because the first date which they were accepting was walking at a farmer's market or going up a hill for a hike or meeting on a Saturday morning, or meeting for an after dinner frozen yogurt. Right? So I wasn't
James Swanwick (29:02.801)
committing to these big kind of like extravagant sit down dinners where they go through this all ridiculous notion of the waiter and the waitress Hello, sir, can I get you started with wine? What would you like some drinks? I just removed that from the equation. And what happened was that I got to connect with my date on a on a human level, which didn't involve toxins. It involved just natural ways of being out in nature and going for a walk.
right. And then you get to know someone. Now on the on those occasions where somehow under whatever circumstance I ended up in a bar or at a restaurant, the waiter or waitress would come over and I'd say yeah, sparkling water things go grab sparkling water ice and a piece of lime. And usually the date would see that and go, Oh, you don't drink. I go, No, I don't drink. I just very just I know I don't drink. I haven't drunk in years. Yeah. Really?
Yeah, yeah, just feel so much better about it. Yeah, but you do you go ahead you want to have it have whatever you want to have. And sometimes they would order a wine and that was fine. Other times they just had sparkling water as well. Or they'd say, Wow, this is amazing. Some of them actually said to me, Wow, a real man. Because a real man is a man who does whatever the hell he pleases. And guess what? Whatever the hell I please is drinking soda, water, ice and a piece of line. What's
What is not desirable about that? So again, I hope my passion for this subject is getting through to your listeners, Michael, because I'm telling you, like, you remove alcohol from the equation, that's when you really get to know someone you add alcohol to it. Well, you can also get to know someone, but for all reasons that you probably don't want to, right. And anyone in this world who needs a foreign substance.
Michael Trainer (30:52.273)
Mm-hmm.
James Swanwick (30:57.265)
to feel relaxed enough to be able to connect, I submit hasn't yet fully embraced themselves and being with themselves. And it's not easy. I mean, I've done lots of self-development work and I realized that things like maybe womanizing or drinking or overeating or overworking, even like over-exercising, becoming obsessive about it.
Michael Trainer (31:08.27)
Hmm
James Swanwick (31:22.973)
is just a way of me not feeling comfortable with myself and not being present. And people are always asking me like, how do you stop drinking? How do you stop drinking? And look, in candidly with our clients, we give them tactics, like we give them tactics of how to break the habit. But really, if I threw away all the tactics, the simple answer is, know yourself, do personal development, be comfortable in your own skin. Say sorry to those that
You've wronged. Be, be active, help people, practice conscious communication, focus on your sleep, eat good food, get out in nature. You do all those kinds of things. Guess what you don't have cravings for a substance like alcohol. You don't crave being a shopaholic. You don't crave porn. You don't crave marijuana. You don't crave working so hard because all these are just signs that you're not
comfortable enough being present with yourself. That's the that's the best hack on how to stop drinking alcohol. It's just do the work, be comfortable with yourself.
Michael Trainer (32:33.63)
Yeah, I'm glad you, that last bit you just shared really resonates, because I do think, we attract what we are, right? I had a great girlfriend say, I wrote down a list of all the things I wanted to attract in a mate, and then I set off on becoming those things, right? Because we have to be that to attract that. And to me, coming into
comfort with oneself is obviously the path of life, but I feel I feel like that work is such valuable work and you know the people that we attract into our lives at least the people I've attracted into my life since I've given up drinking have been phenomenal and it's a result of who I'm being and the discernment and the comfort with self right like I would notice when I was drinking
it wasn't just the drinking, it was the cascade of bad choices that preceded post drinking, right? Like when I lived in New York, 100% I'm getting two slices in a Coke the next morning, you know, so like my food and by the way, not to vilify slice, I still will crush slice, but you know, my food would be crap. You know, I definitely be watching some films because I felt that you know, and it's like, it was just like, there's a whole cascade of bad
Bad is too strong word of sub optimal behaviors that would then proceed from my hungover state, right? Whereas now that I don't drink it's like all of like I also compound my good behaviors, right? It's like And as a result, I'm also exponentially attracting better people and I feel like The degree to which
I am also now more sensitive to my own internal barometer around what's for me and what's not for me, right? Like part of that like liquid courage, so to speak, like people feeling uncomfortable, like is by the way, if your internal compass is telling you this is not your person or this environment is not the environment for you. I remember talking to In-Q about this mutual friend, great artist, and he was like, now if I walk into a place and I don't feel it, you know?
Michael Trainer (34:53.254)
Instead of using, you know, alcohol, I just leave right like my barometer is letting me know this is not for me And so I think having the strength the courage to know when something is for you or not for you is also a profound benefit of not drinking and it's led to me attracting better people in my life, it's led to a cascade of better decisions and You know, I just recently reflected on
uh... what are the periods in my life or i've been proudest of myself and actually this is random but i remember at twelve years old in seventh grade i went to uh... grammar school in chicago and without going into great detail i was kind of the class clown and had i was very popular but i was i was popular because i would kind of use a lot of self deprecating humor and i was tracked in remedial classes and i knew i was smart but i but my identity
seen myself in that way yet. And so I embarked on a now three, four year journey to, I went to one of go to a private school, getting a tutor, etc. One of years later, becoming a Fulbright scholar. But it was, it was me committing to this process in high school where I actually didn't touch a drop of alcohol. I know a lot of people socialize with alcohol.
and I was still like very popular, et cetera, but I was committed to the work of what I wanted to build and the identity of who I wanted to be. And it was a different identity from how I saw myself. And the degree to which I was proud of who I became and the opportunities that sprang from that are not to be underestimated, they were profound. And I feel like for me, one of the greatest ways to quit a bad habit or to step into a new
a new version of yourself is in is grounded first in that context of identity of who you see yourself to be right like I was I was listening to James Clear who wrote a Tal McCabbits and he was like for example if you're trying to quit smoking and someone offers you a cigarette you know you could give two responses one is oh no I'm trying to quit and the other is oh no I'm not a smoker right one is grounded in I'm still a smoker and I'm trying to quit the other is I as my identity I'm just not a smoker
Michael Trainer (37:08.746)
Right? Like, so no, definitely I don't want a cigarette. Right. And to me, I think most of the transformation that we're looking for in our lives is identity based. Can you talk a little bit about identity based transformation and what you've seen from those who have, and I know, I know by the way, like you're serving some people who just want to reduce or just doing 30 days for those who have actually stepped into, Oh no, I'm not a drinker. What.
what is the consequence of that commitment? What do you see from an identity level from the people who have committed to living an alcohol-free lifestyle?
James Swanwick (37:48.281)
Well, you were never a drinker. You're always just you.
Michael Trainer (37:51.003)
Mm. Yeah.
James Swanwick (37:53.893)
right? That was it. That's just it. And you're still just you. You just happen to drink at the moment. Or you just simply have been drinking for the past 20 years. But that doesn't mean that you're a drinker. It just means that you're Michael, or you're James or you're Cindy or you're Sarah. That's who you are. And even that's not really who you are, if you really break it down. It's just the name that your parents gave you. Right?
So this ridiculous notion that people say like, oh, I'm no good at tech. Oh, I'm terrible at the gym. Oh, I'm awful at this. Oh, I'm crap at this. It's just, they're just stories. That's all they are. They're made up beliefs. That's all they are. But we live our life like these things are reality. And it's not, they're just made up stories and made up beliefs. And so what we do is we help challenge those beliefs, break down those beliefs.
break down the meaning that we've been associating to those beliefs.
And what we're left with is just nothing. And from there, we get to create everything, anything we want. Now, this is why I tell you, this is why AA, in my opinion, gets it so wrong. And before I go into this, let me just say, let me just give you a little disclaimer here, okay? I support the mission of AA, which is to support people stopping drinking and overcome addictions.
Having said that, statistically speaking, it's probably the second or the absolute most ineffective way to stop drinking. Studies show that it works for 7% of people who attempt it, 7%. Now, when I say works, I mean, get to a year alcohol free. Okay, 7%, which means 93% of people who attempt AA it doesn't work for.
James Swanwick (39:55.381)
ineffective. And yet, all of society says, Oh, you got a drinking problem, better go to AA. Now has AA helped millions of people? Yes, absolutely. And if AA has worked for you and is working for you keep doing it. I am not here to discourage you from anything that's working, just do it. But the facts are, it's ineffective for 93% of people who attempt it. Now, here's my reason why okay, this is now
my opinion. What's about to come out of my mouth now is my opinion.
And that is, is that in AA, you have to say, my name's James, and I'm an alcoholic. Well, I call BS on that. I'm not an alcoholic. I'm James. I'm me. And I just happened to have been drinking way too much and a lot for many years, but that doesn't make me an alcoholic and not drinking certainly doesn't make me sober. That's why in our organization, we don't use the word sober. We don't use the word sobriety. We don't use the word.
James Swanwick (41:01.612)
I'm an alcoholic, so I can't drink, which implies to me that under normal circumstances, you would drink. Oh, I'm 10 day, 10 years sober. I'm 20 years sober. I'm 15 years sober. Oh no, I've got my sobriety is blah, blah. I'm like, no, in my view, that is completely ineffective. It's getting you stuck in a label. It's getting you stuck in victimhood. It's getting you stuck in. I can't drink.
I would drink if I could, but I can't. Now the problem with that is that now, naturally speaking, you want to drink, but you can't. Now that makes you feel like what? A prisoner. And what do most prisoners wanna do? They wanna break out of prison. Which is why these 30 day no alcohol challenges like sober October and dry annually, like I applaud the mission of helping people to get a glimpse of what it feels like to be alcohol free.
But 95% of people who do that go and get plastered on day 30 or day 31. Because they they're going into it like using will power and motivation or drink under normal circumstances, but I'm not going to for these 30 days. And then I'll let's so celebrate the fact that we did 30 days and go and have some drinks. Well, I asked the question, what the hell was the point of you doing it in the first place?
So, you know, you're asking about identity and helping people shift identities. A lot of this is helping people just shift beliefs, recognize where they've been creating stories like I'm an alcoholic. Bullshit. 95% of people who are out there telling themselves they're an alcoholic, I submit are not alcoholics. They're just them. And they've been drinking too much. And it's caused lots of problems in their life. But this notion that you're naturally speaking, you're an alcoholic is I
I submit is just preposterous. And it's and it's why in my opinion, we have so many challenges in the world. Because you got cultural conditioning and advertisers and celebrities that you mentioned like Ryan Reynolds and the rock or promoting alcohol and making funny videos about it. I saw Ryan Reynolds promoting his liquor line the other day was very funny. I like Ryan Reynolds. He's funny guy. But he's doing a complete disservice to society by promoting attractively packaged poison.
James Swanwick (43:15.093)
I like the rock. The rock's done so much for charity. He's very entertaining, seems like a good guy, but he's pushing his tequila brand, which causes just absolute mayhem in the world, all these kinds of problems. So I'm calling out those celebrities to wake up. And, and like I'm calling the celebrities out and like I'm calling out the actual effectiveness of AA, I'm also calling out the listener.
Like start challenging these beliefs that you have, start challenging these things that you've just accepted as the norm for years and years and years. Stop, start challenging this notion that you need alcohol to have fun or that you need alcohol to create romance or you need alcohol to do a business deal or you need alcohol to network. You do not need it at all. You can create romance and business deals and networking and fun and relaxation and entertainment without it.
Michael Trainer (44:07.694)
Hmm. Well, I want to just, first of all, we're coming to close of our hour. I do want to just push back a little bit on the AA. Not in so far as creating an adversarial context, but just to say, I do know people who have what I would call an addiction, right? And to me, there are biological corollaries to addiction.
And I'm not here on this show, nor do I think we have the time or expertise to really talk about for those who have an alcohol or otherwise an addiction. And of course, we can get into existentially identity of what not. I do think that any anything you can do to support you in transcending and moving past that addiction is helpful. And for most, what is accessible and has at least worked is is.
you know, AA, I'm not saying it's perfect. I've not actually been in it. I can't speak to that. But I do think what is demonstrated to help people in their success in any change or transformation is a social group that helps support them and the accountability that comes from it. And from what I've heard from others who have done, for example, AA or the recovery movement is that group and that accountability really helps to hold them, right? The buddy system.
Having someone who actually has your back is really, really powerful. And creating a new identity that is supported by another group of people. Again, not going into the nuance of it, but just to say, I do think whatever works for you, do that. And if you actually have an addiction,
which I do think is a real thing. I've been addicted in my life in the past to tobacco and thankfully I was able to give up. I didn't, but I do know what it's like when you have like a biological like, wow, I'm addicted to this. That said, I think from my perspective at least, there's a scale and a spectrum of people who are using a substance and...
Michael Trainer (46:17.438)
I think that there's a need also, like I personally was never, uh, for lack of a better term, an alcoholic. So to me, that wasn't really the, the place in which I felt called, but I do feel like creating an identity and a lifestyle and having a cohort of people who, who subscribed to the same views and who helped support me in that journey of living an alcohol free lifestyle has been.
really, really supportive for me in keeping up that lifestyle. I know that's also something that you provide in regards to, you know, for those who, I'm just gonna use my own word, again, you know, who are not necessarily like in a place of addiction, who are looking for a lifestyle that's different and could potentially use support in fostering that new lifestyle. I think there's a...
great need for a variety of different vehicles to foster and help them in that journey. Can you share a little bit James about because I believe that you do 30 day challenges. Can you just before obviously we close share a little bit about for people who are intrigued by what you're offering where they can find you and if you have a 30 day program I don't know if that's running all the time or when that's kicking off. I know we're recording this for those listening in September.
Obviously October happens to be a common time, sober October, January as you mentioned happens to be a common time for people to give those 30 days a go. But please, where can people find you?
James Swanwick (47:48.705)
Yeah. So alcohol free lifestyle is the name of the podcast that I host in Apple podcasts and on Spotify. And we do episodes there where we do case studies where we show how we support people to stop drinking alcohol, make more money, save a marriage, get healthier and all those benefits that living alcohol free lifestyle create. So that's a good place to start.
check out the alcohol free lifestyle podcast. alcohol free lifestyle.com is where you'll find some posts, a link to our 30 day no alcohol challenge, we do a 30 day no alcohol challenge. But I do say this carefully. My invitation is if you are to enroll in our 30 day no alcohol challenge.
I invite you to do it with the idea that you are going to go further than the 30 days rather than stop at 30 days and go and celebrate. Because otherwise, what's the point? And then we have a 90-day stop drinking process. Our flagship experience is called Project 90, and it has a 95% success rate of all those who participate in it. It's so successful, in fact, that the University of Washington recently conducted a scientific study on our process.
just to try to prove that our claims were correct. The results are not out yet. They're expected 2024. But the professor who oversaw the study told me off the record that I was gonna be very happy with the results. Now I'd love to just say that, wow, we're so special and we've discovered the top secret to helping people stop drinking. But the reality is more in line with what you suggested, Michael. And that is we create a great like-minded community for people to get support.
And the like mindedness is the is the key word here. You know, project 90 is mostly for business owners, executives, over 40. And so we don't tend to accept those who are under 35, for example, or who are not that demographic. And what happens is the people who are that demographic, they get into the group, they're on these group zoom calls that we have. And they go, Oh, that person is just like me, that person just like me, that person just like me.
James Swanwick (50:06.849)
And it becomes like this, this is camaraderie that's created. And that really does help people stay alcohol free, right? You get you into momentum. The challenge is most people in the world are trying to lone wolf it and going, Oh, I've just need motivation. If I can just do it this time, I'm really going to do it. I would submit that's just as ineffective as what I suggested AA is. Um, so.
Here's here's how I would just finish all this. By the way, you can also follow me on Instagram at James Swanwick. And I'm on TikTok at James Swanwick as well. But what I would say is this finally, look, whatever you do, whether it's following my method, or whether it's AA, or whether you go to rehab, or whether you use willpower, whatever works, just keep doing that. Now, hopefully, I've been able to present some statistics.
which shows you that statistically speaking, you'd have a better chance doing it one way than maybe another way. But again, whatever works, do that. Because like I said before, I've had a life with and without alcohol and without is way better.
Michael Trainer (51:12.286)
Well said, man. I totally align to that. I feel like giving up alcohol has been one of the greatest gifts I've given to myself. And I hope that it's a gift that those listening give to themselves. And I really appreciate your time. And I definitely recommend for those listening, you check out James's programs. And James, thanks for making the time and sharing some of your insights.
James Swanwick (51:40.453)
Michael, thanks again. Thanks for having me. Great to catch up with you.
Michael Trainer (51:43.698)
Likewise.