Kamal Ravikant is a viral writer about the topic of self love. His insights are profound in how to truly love yourself.
Kamal Ravikant wrote a seminal book that went viral about how to truly love yourself. Practical tools and insights on forgiveness of self and others to truly take your life to the next level.
@kamalravikant
http://amazon.com/author/kamal
http://evolve.vc
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Title: Unleashing the Power of Self-Love with Kamal Ravikant
Guest Bio:
Join Michael as he chats with Kamal Ravikant about his personal journey to self-love and inner transformation. Having served in the military, trained as a literary fiction writer, and built tech companies in Silicon Valley, Kamal has an impressive and diverse background. Nonetheless, it was during his lowest moments that Kamal discovered the life-changing power of self-love and inner work. Now committed to personal growth and nurturing self-love, Kamal shares his valuable insights and experiences with others seeking to embark on a similar path.
Episode Summary:
Kamal Ravikant, a successful entrepreneur and former military man, found himself at rock bottom, struggling with self-loathing and misery. In a moment of desperation, he made a vow to fiercely love himself in every way possible, though he had no idea how to do it. Determined to keep this sacred vow, Kamal embarked on a journey to discover how to truly love himself. Through trial and error, he started to see a transformation in his inner world, which soon reflected in his outer life. As his internal dialogue shifted, opportunities and positive experiences began to flow in, proving the immense power of self-love.
The topics discussed in this episode include:
Resources Mentioned:
To get in touch with Kamal Ravikant and keep updated on his work, head over to his socials:
Check out as well Michael Trainer on the following socials/sites:
Transcript
00:00:00 Michael: Welcome to Peak Mind. I'm your host, Michael Trainer, and I'm here with my good friend Kamal Ravikant. Kamal, welcome, my friend.
00:00:07 Kamal: Thank you. Long time coming and thank you for making this happen. You're a very patient man.
00:00:12 Michael: Well, I feel like patience is relevant to our topic of self-love. I feel like I have not always been patient nor have I always been the most loving of myself. But both are things I am working on. And yeah, you and I have been trying to make this happen now for months. But for a–
00:00:32 Kamal: Maybe a year.
00:00:32 Michael: Variety of circumstances, it hasn't yet come. But I think now it's actually coming in the perfect time, which we'll go into during the course of our conversation. But for those listening, Kamal is a friend. I met through a great mutual friend of ours, Craig Clements. And you and I, from my perspective, have had some truly beautiful conversations. And I initially met you actually, I don't know if you remember this, at Summit up in Utah on top of the mountain when you gave a talk and inclusive in that talk was Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It. And I hadn't… I didn't read the book at that time, although I found the talk really compelling. And when I read the book, it became a catalyst for a huge journey that I'm still on. So I'm super grateful to be able to have you on the show and share your insights, because I think it's a topic that is deeply resonant with those listening.
00:01:38 Kamal: Dude, I'd love to hear your journey. Actually, I'm curious.
00:01:41 Michael: Well, of late, I'll share a little bit. So of late, you know, I've done a fair amount of personal work. We're going to make this obviously about you, but because you're asking me–
00:01:51 Kamal: Oh, I'd rather listen to you. But before–
00:01:54 Michael: Because you're asking, I'll share because I also find that when we leave with authenticity and vulnerability, it oftentimes, provides for a better conversation. But I actually, and I have not shared this with you because it's a newer process. So one of my last guests on the show was a gentleman named Stefanos Sifandos. And there's a guy who I will not mention his name out of respect that I, to be honest, found to be a bit of a douchebag, for lack of a better term. The way he occurred to me was not resonant, shall we say. And I noticed because, you know, I noticed his way of being changed in my eyes. And I was like, what's going on with this guy? And I knew that they were connected and I knew that he was working with a guy that specializes specifically for men on somatic work. So working deeply within the body to uncover trauma and to break through really deeply held patterns and behaviors.
00:02:54 Michael: And at the end of that conversation, I asked Stefanos for that gentleman's contact. And I've been working with this gentleman through the body on some of my deepest, for lack of a better term, wounds and traumas. And, you know, one of the things you talk about in the book is this notion of a vow or commitment, which I really want to get into. But it's been really, really hard, you know, kind of like when you're on a fitness journey and, you know, you're just at the beginning and it's like, man, okay, I got to lose 30 pounds or what have you. You know, like it feels daunting, but it's also been extremely rewarding. Like I've re-quit alcohol. Yeah, I'm feeling… I'm doing, you know, I'm starting each day now with like, you know, a walk to Santa Monica Pier back, which is like a four mile walk. And I just, you know, simple things, but I'm doing some of the deep work, inclusive of actually, which is the harder part is setting boundaries with some of the toxic people in my life that I've previously been a people pleaser around. And that's actually probably been the most revolutionary because I think when we think about self-love, at least for me, a lot of times, the critic, you know, Steven Pressfield talks about resistance in the creative process, which I know is a prolific writer. You've probably, you know about and you likely know Steven.
00:04:22 Kamal: [Big] fan.
00:04:23 Michael: Yeah, huge fan of his. He's been on the show several times. I love him. But that notion of resistance shows up and I'd love your perspective on resistance as it relates to self-love. I'd love to sort of hear your thoughts on it. But for me, what's been interesting is and what I love about Steven is he kind of brings like you do, right? You have this sort of militaristic aspect and yet you have an aspect that is oftentimes people dismiss self-love because they perceive it as soft. It's like this soft art or woo woo or fluffy. And I think especially as men, we can kind of therefore dismiss it, yet it is so needed and so essential. And what I love about Steven, what I love about you, if I can draw a comparison is you take topics that are traditionally potentially perceived in a way that could be seen as soft and bring a rigor to it. And even in its simplicity when applied, it has absolutely profound results in my experience. So I'd love to actually start there and asking, you how you think about the notion of that journey of self-love and wherein resistance shows itself. How you stay committed to your path because obviously you wrote that book some years ago. I imagine it's a continuous journey, but I'd love your insights around how to stay on the path of self-love.
00:05:49 Kamal: Yes, interesting, you know, self-love isn't, you know, taking bubble baths and long walks and looking at rainbows kind of thing. This whole thing and life, it's an inner game. You know, for me self-love end up being almost a Trojan horse to working on my inner self and making that the number one priority because as within, so without. You know, we're in this mind, you know, from the moment we were born to the moment we die. Regardless of how many people surround us, we are still alone in our head and it's our head that we're stuck with the entire time, you know, the heaven and hell is created within, often, right, in our lives. So much of was a Mark Twain that’s I've like, what is it, like I've suffered many things and like a few of those actually have… very happen or whatever. It's like, most of it's like, it's just all mental, right?
00:06:39 Michael: Totally.
00:06:40 Kamal: And so for me self-love, it was not a thing I should think about, I was not that guy, you know, like I've been in the military. I trained to be a literary fiction writer, you know, build tech companies in Silicon Valley. You didn't.. there's nothing in there. If you look back at the biography of Kamal, I was like this is got… this guy’s going to go out to start writing by loving yourself. I want to laugh my butt off at you. And yeah, and it's like literally, I had to hit rock bottom at a point and to really, you know, sometimes we have to hit rock bottom to open ourselves up to what we really need rather, what we think we need, you know, to truly be open with ourselves. I've had a few moments like that in life, you know, like one is being in a hospital bed and the surgeon telling me, you know, I'm going to die, possibly, right? You have some very honest conversations with yourself in those moments or those moments like in a way that you just never do and I wish I could give people that gift to just that level of honesty and conversation with yourself because those are the transformative conversations and those are the ones that actually you apply. All right. Those are the ones that transform your life.
00:07:51 Michael: Yeah, they say, what's that saying? I'm sorry to interrupt you but we're saved like you got 10,000 problems until you have a health challenge and then you've got one, right? And that’s why–
00:07:58 Kamal: You got one.
00:07:59 Michael: It’s great to clarify.
00:07:59 Kamal: Yeah, exactly. And it's such a true saying, man. It's so true. If your health's gone, nothing else matters.
00:08:05 Michael: Yep.
00:08:05 Kamal: Right. But yeah, so I had to hit rock bottom of my own and everyone's definition is different and the circumstances to get them is, different. But that's where I hit where I basically made a vow to myself and I wrote it down and I did not sit down to write a vow by loving myself. I literally was just trying to get out of this. I was trying to get out of this head I was stuck in and I was like, I'm going to get out of this. I'm going to fix this head or I'm going to die trying. I cannot live in this head anymore. I just couldn't, I was too miserable, right? And… but when I sat down to write this vow, what came out was about I love myself and in the book, is far more better said because the vow I wrote was nicer. You know, it's been years since I wrote it. So. But the gist of it was like I just vowed that I was going to fiercely love myself in every single way I possibly could, every thought, every moment, every action. And I remember sitting back and looking at that vow thinking, what the hell did I just write like, you know, for one thing, I'm a big believer in the power of personal commitment. You know, like really, like you want to get ahead in life. Start making commitments to yourself and keeping them. You're going to have a level of confidence in yourself. And when you have a level of confidence in yourself and you can trust yourself that hey, I'm going to keep my word to myself. You make things happen and people around you can sense that about you and opportunities… people give you more opportunities.
00:09:27 Kamal: So what's higher than a commitment of vow in a marriage vow, a vow is a sacred thing and a vow to oneself, I believe is basically between you and life or you or whatever you believe in. It's like the ultimate contract. You know, you made a real contract and I don't… I'm like, you can't break it. So I sat there and looked at it like that because I read… I vowed to love myself. I had no idea where it came from, but it did. Right. And then I had to sit around and figure out how to do it because unlike the guy who wrote the book, I'm the guy who wrote the book. I did not set out to find books on it. I did not go listen to Ted talks. I did not go start taking meditation retreats. I didn't do any of that. I was too miserable, one. Second, I usually used to stay away from a lot of self-help because I found too much of self-help was, I mean, there's exceptions. There's some great exceptions, but too much was just people… flowery statements made to make you feel good or to inspire you, motivate you. But my rule is, look, you read this a month later. Are you better? If you're not, it was garbage. I just feel that way. Okay, like there's enough stuff out there. You want to write, you want to create stuff that is very, very practical. So in my head, I didn't know anything that was practical. So I just set out to do it myself and try to figure it out and it was me in my head, you know, what sample size of one and it was the only sample size that matters. So that's what I did and eventually, I started to work whatever I was doing and if it worked, I did. More of, if it didn't, I threw it out. I didn't care. My route was to furiously do this or basically, really, like die trying because I was not going to stay in that head.
00:11:10 Kamal: And very quickly within weeks and within a month, like my mind was completely different. My inside was completely different. And what was fascinating was and you'll get it and I'm sure a lot of listeners will, life started to be different. And it's not like I was going out there changing things. It was like life. It's almost like life was wavy and ripples and the ripple shifted and things just started to work. And the only thing I was working on was my head, was my inside, and that was like a major aha, like a transformative moment to realize, oh, the better I'm inside, the better my life is outside rather than try to like just use my will or whatever determination to fix everything outside, go within first. And, look, resistance was massive. You know, you're talking to a guy who really was very unhappy with himself, you know, could, at moments, hate himself, dislike himself, say the whole thing. Right. So as I said, I have to love myself. I, too, basically trick my mind into it and you know, and how to do it and so there was fierce resistance. But then again, if it was easy, if it was easy, we would all be doing it. Same thing with like, you know, if you've never worked out, no one ever taught you how to work out in your life and just been eating like a regular crappy diet and then you start to work out, you got… your body's going to fight, your mind's going to fight it. You know, but you stick with it and you're going to get the results. So the resistance comes from the old patterns because your mind doesn't know any better and your mind is a survival mechanism. Quite often, the egos are… so anything new is a threat. Right. Anything specially transformative, and you’ll see your mind will fight it which I've actually learned is a signal. It’s like, ah, I'm on the right path. Okay, cool.
00:12:54 Kamal: You know, it's like you got to learn it. You get the same signal but the man you just shift the message around, so the resistance, oh, that's good because I'm on the right path. If I was… if there was no resistance and I'd still be saying I'm hating myself. You know what I mean? So the resistance actually became almost like a marker that I was in the right path and the resistance gets less and less. But here's the thing. I always like to use this analogy like look, doing any inner work, like that is like going to the gym building your body, you know, crafting your body, getting in great shape. But then let's say you get there. You're all proud of yourself. Say, I got this and then you spend the next year sitting in front of TV watching I Love Lucy reruns and eating bonbons. What's your body going to be like? Right. It will show. Well the mind is the same except the mind is faster because we have all these patterns from our lives, you know, from a childhood that run… that they’d been running the show for so long that if we don't keep on, you know, working on the new patterns, the old ones will surface especially when something goes sideways, will fall back in the old behaviors of coping or old behaviors of fear rather than the new behaviors of coming out of this new filter of loving yourselves. So the resistance later on comes from actually laziness. Like every time I got lazy with the practice, the old patterns start to come and that's what I call… that is resistance. Right. But in the end, what overcame resistance for me was the fact that I made that vow, that sacred contract between me and life was way more important than anything inside or outside that would try to stop it.
00:14:32 Michael: So beautifully said.
00:14:32 Kamal: So I'm a big believer in doing that.
00:14:34 Michael: So beautifully said, my man. I feel like that notion of, so much of what you shared I think is rich. I love that you started with the notion for me, at least, of building integrity and personal power which proceeds exactly through what you said, right, which is keeping your word to yourself. Right. Like that, there's no greater muscle that we build in our own sort of self-confidence, self-love in my view than sticking by what we say we're going to do and doing it, like in our… and starting within, right. Like so to me, that notion of integrity is so integral to my own self-belief, my own self, the view that I hold of who I am. But I think beyond that, to keep it, right? Like there's so many instances that I love how you talk about the mindset of being aware in which, when the resistance comes and treating it in a way like the gym. Right. Like of course, you know when you're waking up at 6 AM, the last thing you want to do is go to the gym and lift heavy weights. But the more days you do it in a row and stick to that vow and that commitment, obviously the more momentum and the better you feel and you start building, not only the physical muscles, but I feel like the inner conviction muscles, the power to make other declarative commitments in other areas of life are sort of enhanced, and it's almost as if at least in my experience. I'd love your thoughts, if this resonates with you, but it reminds me of the sort of that man in the arena quote and this notion of providence because for me, I can only recall, I've made promises, but I've only actually at least out loud, only ever made one vow in my life.
00:16:16 Michael: And I've never shared the story, but I wound up living in Sri Lanka. I may have shared that with you at some point, but I studied with a seventh-generation traditional healer and he had passed his tradition on from father to son and he did not have a son and this tradition is on the brink of basically decline through colonialism and a lot of other practices, but it's a very, very special form of Ayurveda. That's a very rare form of knowledge. And for whatever reason, this man offered to teach me in this tradition and we made a vow together and I had no idea by the way. I was living in, you know, I'm a kid from Chicago, literally the opposite side of the world of Sri Lanka and I was 19 years old.
00:17:03 Kamal: No kidding.
00:17:03 Michael: Nineteen years old.
00:17:04 Kamal: Okay. Wow.
00:17:05 Michael: And without going into great detail, you know, for me even being there, it was a country amidst, it was when Sri Lanka was at Civil War. So you have a predominantly Buddhist country yet amidst, Civil War. So you've got literally like, you know, sandbags and, you know, M60s on almost every corner, guys with AKS everywhere. But what was potent and powerful about it was for me, you know, I had associated travel with fear, even though I love travel because I was jumped, when I was a kid and by gang in my first experience abroad. And what was wild was I confronted that fear and in a way built back a self-love by transcending it and confronting the things I feared the most and traveling as far from my reality as possible literally going to the other side of the world. And that's actually where I met this man, Bandhu, which is [unclear] was his name and he offered to teach me but to do so, we had to make a vow and the vow was to something bigger than ourselves. I've never… I don't think I've ever talked about this publicly. But if we were able to be reunited and if I was able to come back, because I spent about six months with them and basically we were to then pay homage by paying our respects to the poor as well as to the gods. So we were to go to a famous place called Kataragama, which is a sacred site for Buddhists, Muslims, Christians in the south of Sri Lanka and give our offerings, right, a puja ostensibly.
00:18:38 Michael: And to make a long story short, when I made that vow, the degree to which I took it seriously is like it wasn't even a question, you know, like I had no idea I was going to come back by the way, like I was 19 years old. It's not like I had a bunch of money or anything like that. But long and short of it was I wound up applying for every grants I could find, thought I had totally blown the application and wound up getting back not only once but a second time on a Fulbright scholarship and spent a year in this man's tutelage. And the only way I could even have had the self-confidence to apply for it was because I had made a vow to something that was bigger than myself. Of course, now I recognize also it was the greatest gift I could give to myself. But I so relate to this notion of and I think this at least my understanding as a central concept of both the book but also what I really want the listeners to get is like yes, there's commitment and I think a lot of people break their commitments to themselves including myself on multiple occasions not saying infallible by any [means].
00:19:44 Kamal: Yours truly as well.
00:19:45 Michael: But then there's the vow and the vow to me is like do or die, I will do whatever it takes and there's such a power and providence does come in to support you. I feel like–
00:19:58 Kamal: Yes.
00:19:58 Michael: When you make that vow, so I'd love to hear like when you made that vow to yourself, what did you notice? What did you notice happening in you and around you as a result of that vow?
00:20:13 Kamal: I mean I made the vow to myself. You know, what's interesting is, a vow does not mean perfection and execution. Right. We’re human beings, never do we have perfection in execution of anything, right. A vow means you're just all in.
00:20:32 Michael: Yeah.
00:20:32 Kamal: You're gonna fall, you're gonna stumble, you're gonna screw up, knowing you're screwing up, but you're gonna get up and you're gonna move forward towards accomplishing that vow, toward keeping that vow.
00:20:40 Michael: Yeah.
00:20:41 Kamal: Like when I joined the US Army, 18 year old kid, you know, the take here and you had to swear an oath to the Constitution in the United States of America, an oath, right. Like there's something about the power of committing to something bigger than you, and the vow that I made in my journal, it was to me, but as I put it down, it was too bigger than me. And it's like, hey, come on, you're gonna let that down. I mean you can't. So, like honestly, if it wasn't for the vow, none of the following what happened after would have happened.
00:21:14 Michael: Yep.
00:21:14 Kamal: Because I would have given up. I didn't believe in loving myself. I didn't know how to do it. I would have pooped it. I would have gone for something like, make myself better or do that, you know, like something, whatever, that seems easier or more manageable than loving yourself. You've never really known how to do it. No one's ever taught you, you know, everyone says go love yourself. Okay, great. How? You know, like I mean, we’re all carrying, like this child, you know, like those of us, you know, like who've been through like childhood trauma, you know, be carried out with us and that actually pulls the strings of the adult. You know, they're running like these fear based patterns and there were survival patterns. So it's not like making a bad. There were survival patterns at one point in life, but now they're still running the show. We're no longer in that space. All right. No one teaches us how to get out of that in a way or no one teaches how to love yourself so that those are irrelevant. You know, so, like, that's what I had to do because I made the vow and I did not do to write a book. I was going to write the great American novel. I trained to be a literary fiction writer. I was not going to write a self-help book. I swear to you, man, that was like the last thing I was going to write.
00:22:22 Michael: Right.
00:22:23 Kamal: Right. And I still like, kind of cringe a little when people say the self-help author. I'm like, no, like I'm a guy who does stuff.
00:22:28 Michael: Yeah.
00:22:29 Kamal: Who works hard on himself and he shares the results.
00:22:31 Michael: Yeah.
00:22:32 Kamal: That's the way I look at it. Right.
00:22:34 Michael: That's the way I see you. That's absolutely the way I see you. I mean, we've talked about such diverse topics, but that's actually to me why you're credible in the self-help, right? Like, it's like forgive this is a crass analogy, right? But like someone calls himself a shaman. To me, they're automatically almost discredited as a shaman. It's right, like the true shamans I know don't call himself anything nor do they need to, right, because it's just who they're being. It's their beingness and also the humility of that, that is sort of their medicine for lack of a better term. And what I like about the fact that you are an accidental author in a context, so to speak, obviously, not accidental. But insofar as the category as we refer to it, to me, it's even more credible because–
00:23:22 Kamal: Yeah.
00:23:23 Michael: Like you're talking about, you went in the army. I mean, you were in Silicon Valley. Like you've approached things from such a myriad of different circumstances and like you said, you've garnered certain tools, but you're sharing something. And I'd love for you to talk about that because the book, as I understand it, in a way became almost like a kind of caught fire, right? Like, it was like–
00:23:45 Kamal: Yeah.
00:23:46 Michael: It was more like I'm going to share something which by the way also I want to acknowledge like the vulnerability coming from that place. Like I can just share from my perspective, like even launching this podcast as a guy who had previously started Global Citizen Festival. It took me five years to even launch my first episode because I had such internal resistance to be like, oh dude, I can't go from a guy like hosting Beyonce on stage in Central Park to some dude in his living room talking to other people. Like, that's like a massive step down, you know, and gratefully, like I finally got over that resistance. But it is to say, like I think when we have these different perspectives and in a way almost like we find our way and we're just sharing the best insights because of those perspectives, to me, it’s more resonant. Like if someone sets out and they're like, I'm a self help, you know, like motivational speaker, I'm almost like, well, it kind of loses credibility in my mind almost because I'm like, okay, well, what's the basis upon which that has become your identity?
00:24:48 Michael: And for me, like the fact that isn't your identity makes it somehow for me, at least, more credible. Like I want to listen to it more because in a way, there's a vulnerability you likely had to walk and I'd love, if you share it. I believe that part of the inception point was, this was a two hour, not two hour, two minute talk to a group of executives that were probably not what you would call a self help audience. And this concept of sharing kind of your notion of self love, like there's a vulnerability in that. And in my view, actually, a courage in that. But I'd love to hear your perspective on how, given that you didn't set out to write a self help book around the topic of self love, how that actually emerged for you.
00:25:37 Kamal: That's a great question. Yeah, like I had to be talked into it and then they've been publishing out to be kicking and screaming at that was going to be like the biggest laughing stock. Right. I mean, here I am, a Silicon Valley guy, whatever, I am writing about a book about loving yourself. But like after, what I call, I figured it out and I was applying it and it really caused all these shifts in my life. I was invited to something called Renaissance Weekend, which, is, just like happens a few times a year. I think the main one is in Charleston, North Carolina, is it in North Carolina, South Carolina, was messed it up. But Charleston over New Year's and it's always like it's a group. It's always like CEOs, media executives, a lot of, like people from the Pentagon, all this like high level people, they get together and you're on panels. The rule there is everyone has to be part of speaking, either on a panel or you have to give a talk. There's no, like I come there and the 100% time, I'm in the audience only, which I really liked. So I went there and they put me on this one and rather than… actually, just for being a panel, I have to give a talk, as a two minute talk. You’re only given two minutes and the title was, if I could share one thing with the world. I was like, oh, okay, that's a small one. And I remember as I'd never really spoken on stage, maybe I'd done a couple of times for, like, tech stuff, like entrepreneurship stuff. But that was also like, as panels, never just one on one.
00:27:04 Kamal: And here I am. This is a legit audience. Like, look, I was in the military a long time ago and like the former head of joint chiefs of staff was there. Like talk about being intimidated by the kind of people, are over there. Right. The ATR was still like, oh, my God, you know, stare attention and like. And so I was coming up with all this clever stuff, all this kind of stuff. And it just didn't feel right. And I was talking to a friend over there and I just didn't feel right. She's like, well, just like figure out the scariest thing you can share, but that's real and go do that. Something like that. So I still hadn't figured out. And so I'm waiting to go and stay. And so it's a big, this was like one of the biggest ones of the massive big audience. And like the person who went before me was like the youngest steel fellow, people like that. It's just very accomplished. I mean, this kid was more accomplished than all of us put together by 16. I mean, it's like, okay, I get it. And you know what? I was like, see, my line was a fuck it. I'm going to share with, like really changed my life this year.
00:28:02 Kamal: So I went… So I got on the phone. I got up on the podium and I was like, they start the clock. I'm like, okay, I'm going to share… if I could share one thing with the world, I want to share the secret to life. And there was like some people laughed and I said, and I just figured out this summer and here it is. And I just told them about loving myself, how I figured out how to love myself, like literally practically in a way that changed everything for me. And I went out at one point, I looked at him, these dudes in like military uniforms, like the generals or whatever. And I'm like, you know what? One thing I've learned, this whole thing, all of you, it's all a show. You all just, ripples. But I start working my inside. This whole show shifts and it starts to work for me. I just said it all. I just got two minutes and boom, it was over. And you know what was crazy? I went off the stage. I thought, oh shit, they got to throw me out of this nut job out of here. Like I slink away. I just, and good thing [they don’t know me].
00:29:01 Kamal: There was a line of people waiting to talk to me. Blew my mind. Very impressive people. Right. And I was like, oh shit, what I… because it was a human thing and these are human beings I was talking to, forget about the badges, the uniforms, the suits, the accomplishments, underneath it all were human beings. And we all struggle with basically, the same basics. No matter the accomplishments, right? There were human beings and I touched something there by sharing something very, very human. And that's where actually the birth of the book came from. Was through that talk.
00:29:41 Michael: It's profound what you… and I love that the inception point in a way was in that context in that audience. There was something you've said that I love. And I want to sort of get back to the sort of what in you led to that fire, which obviously was recognized in this way as authentic and courageous by this group that probably wasn't your traditional self-help group. So to speak, these heads of state and military, etc. And that is to be a phoenix, you've got to burn. And I know that part of the catalyst, they say that oftentimes, pain is a greater changemaker than pleasure. And it's in the midst of our challenges that I think were presented with an opportunity and how we face those challenges, of course, becomes our conviction and character. There's a man that I studied with that said something that I found that statement very beautiful and I found his statement very beautiful. And he said to me two things that I carry to this day. He said that pain is the horse that beauty rides, pain is the horse that beauty rides. And he said to me and this was during a particularly tough time in my life. And I know part of the catalyst, which I'd love for you to share, was some of the challenges you went through in your own life.
00:31:04 Michael: But the other thing he said to me was that basically, if you are courageous, the shit in life can become the compost for new beginnings. Right. Like basically, a lot of times we get mired in this shit and we identify with it. We become victims and it becomes our story. And people live in it for the rest of their lives potentially or for years. And it was huge for me at the time because I was going through a bit of a dark night of the soul. I had gone through a pretty intense breakup. I had moved across the country. Girlfriend cheated on me. I didn't know anyone in that town. She didn't come home. We shared. I just moved in. So, yeah. No, thanks. But, and I mean, this was years ago and I've done a lot of work on it. But it's just to share like I… so the beauty was though that I wound up going through a transformational container, deep men's workshop, which was… involved a lot of very intense practices. But it was a bit of a process of individuation, which led to a total sea change in my life, story for another day. Love to share it with you. But–
00:32:12 Kamal: I love to hear it.
00:32:12 Michael: Yeah, but which is to say that in that process, I did realize that oftentimes these can become the seminal moments, right? That either kind of break us or become the great catalysts, right? In that, like, what's that Japanese art where the cracks become the beauty, right?
00:32:31 Kamal: Oh, yeah. It’s beautiful.
00:32:32 Michael: You know what I'm talking about? Where the gold, you put the gold in the cracks and it becomes… there's a recognition of the beauty in the cracks. And to me–
00:32:40 Kamal: No, that's… yeah.
00:32:43 Michael: It'll come to me probably in like 30 minutes as we're finishing up. But in essence, you know what I mean? It's that notion of the beauty in our… through and beyond our brokenness for lack of a better term. And I feel like, I know there were some hard catalysts that led you to these insights to the degree that you're willing to share. I'd love… I'm particularly interested in some of the reconciliation and the journey early days that you had with your father and the walk you did in Spain. But I know also there was a breakup as part of your journey to whatever degree because I think people can really find themselves and relate when we come from a place of like sharing some of the challenges we've gone through and then eventually love to get into some of the insights that you garnered, that are practical tools, that people can use to sort of build those. To turn that shift for lack of a better term into compost for new growth.
00:33:39 Kamal: Wow, man, there's a lot to unpack here. The thing about my father, like look, my dad was an abusive guy. My mom left with my brother and I, we were young and he wasn't much part of my life until finally he was dying of bone cancer. And then I went some a couple of times and I was with him the night he died in the hospital. And he had asked me to take his ashes to the Ganges, which is the tradition of his ancestors. And it meant a lot to him. And at the time I'd seen him, I kind of laughed it off, like, no, no, no, let's not talk about it. But that night when he was lying in bed, was in the hospital, he was passing away. I told him, okay, I'm going to do it. I will do it. And then he passed away shortly after. He was hanging on, I was, okay, I'll do it. And so a couple of weeks later, at 25 year old, I just been laid off from work. I had very little money. I think I had $3,000 to my name. I went off to India with his ashes and I was supposed to be gone for a few weeks. I came home eight months later.
00:34:44 Michael: Wow.
00:34:44 Kamal: Right. Basically, something to me when I went to the Ganges. Yeah. When I went to the Ganges, opened his ashes and watched him fly out, something in me just snapped. And I was like, I can't go home. Like I can't. I just wandered, man. I just wandered over India and Nepal. Then I had a ticket to go through Europe to visit a buddy of mine in Italy. That's the way I raised a ticket. So I went there and through a series of events which showed a massive amount of alcohol. Keep in mind, I was 25. I end up walking the Camino de Santiago in Spain, which is the 11th century Pilgrim route in Spain. And I think my budget was like $2 or $3 a day. I was living on, like just apples and cheese and bread and sleeping in wheat fields and like going to churches, just a backpack. And so I walked that pilgrimage at 550 miles. And what was fascinating was obviously I'm not like I wasn't religious. I wasn't looking to do a pilgrimage. It's just, there's a book about it called Rebirth that I wrote the novels based on experience. And I met people along the way. And that's one of the things about these journeys. A pilgrimage is bigger than you. Again, it's not like I'm going backpacking through Thailand or whatever. A pilgrimage is something like this one. Millions of people walked it over the centuries. All for them, it meant something. For them, it was their God. It was a Catholic pilgrimage.
00:36:06 Kamal: So it was bigger than them. So walking in their footsteps adds a level of humility. It makes you feel connected to a part of humanity that's beyond you. Right. And I met these and the kind of people who come to these, kind of do these things aren't the average person or maybe the average person went through something is not going to go do this. So I met some incredible people and they taught me so much at that time in my life to this 25 year old kid. I think when I turned 26 about life and love and forgiveness. And that's actually where I was able to forgive my father because eventually at, somewhere along the road, I realized it just hit me. He was a human being. When you start looking, stop looking at your father who should have been perfect or whatever, someone who should have done perfectly. I realized he was a human being, just as fucked up as his father before him who probably, and his grand and so forth. There's a line of… there was a line of maybe abuse coming down. He was a human being. I mean, you realize his humanity and his suffering and how he suffered when he died. It just broke my heart and it was just forgiveness wasn't something you try. It just happened. And there's something very powerful in realizing just their human being. I'm a human being. I screw up. Am I supposed to be perfect? How can I hold others to that standard? And so, and then his suffering, like in his… he suffered as a human being, and so I was able to forgive him and let that go. And it really opened up a lot of things inside me. It's funny, man, when you forgive the weight you drop, it's crazy. Just like there's no way to make some understanding until they drop the weight themselves.
00:37:48 Michael: And it doesn't come from trying to forgive. It comes from understanding. Once you understand the humanity or you understand that you need to do this for yourself, once you start to understand the forgiveness comes easy and natural rather than trying to say I must forgive. I must forgive. It's like, it's very hard to do it that way. So the understanding let me forgive him. And that actually also led me on the path to be a writer because when I came back, I knew I had a story to tell. I had something very important to share and I had to share it. And I grew up reading books of massive, both my brother and I. We lived in libraries as kids, like massive readers. So I sat down to write it and I thought I was going to write a short story. I'd written a short story or two in college and ended up spending six months in this house in upstate New York in the winter writing, what… done, being the first draft of Rebirth. And I remember after I finished, I was just locked up, like, living. I think then my budget was like $300 a month, just living on that and just making my money just stretch out just so I could focus on writing. And when I finished, I remember going to the borders. There were borders then. Remember the borders–
00:39:02 Michael: Yeah, totally. I remember borders, yeah.
00:39:03 Kamal: And they had these tables of books. And I remember going and finally letting myself read something that I hadn't written and picked up and that was A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway. And I started reading it, just out of curiosity. I was on the table, just picked it up and never been into Hemingway. Hemingway, I guess one of those things that force you to read in high school. Right. So whatever they force you to read is not what you love.
00:39:26 Michael: Exactly.
00:39:25 Kamal: And [pick it up]. Right. And I read a paragraph there in the borders. I literally started crying because I just realized what real writing was. I just saw it in my face and I just spent six months running a steaming pile of shit. Like I was like, oh my God, this is what real writing is. But what Hemingway did for me was he gave me the destination. He showed me what true writing was. And so then it was a matter of, I get obsessed with learning the craft of writing because look, if I have a story to tell, whatever art you choose, if you have… if you feel like you have to do it, then you owe it to yourself to master. Well, no one will ever master it like Steven Pressfield, we’ll talk about that. But to give your all to the craft, any great songwriter over time, you can have an accidental hit in anything but consistent hits, it comes from craft. It doesn't come from talent alone. Right. You got to just obsess and work on your craft. It could mean anything, man. It could be as an entrepreneur, whatever, whatever your craft is. You got to be kind of a little crazy obsessive about it. And I did that for a decade and then moved to Silicon Valley building companies. And like while people be out on the weekends and nights, I'd be like, with Hemingway and all the greats, underlining taking them apart just to get, figure out how a comma in the right place can make you feel a certain way. Right. Started joining writing groups, went to Stanford, took a course there. Like, once I felt I'd learned enough, I'd write another draft from scratch of the same book and say book after like the fourth or fifth draft, starting to send to agents, start collecting rejection letters that eventually start with the form letters to like by the ninth or tenth draft. I forget, they were like personal calls or whatever. And eventually, Hachette bought it and the head of Hachette Books, Mauro DiPreta, amazing guy, amazing editor. He asked, he told me he was going to edit it, which is quite such an honor. Right.
00:41:24 Michael: Yes.
00:41:25 Kamal: And put the book out. But that journey, it was interesting. That journey led to my… gave me a story I felt I had to share. I had no choice. It's amazing when you feel that way with something in life, then you got to go all in. Right.
00:41:38 Michael: Yep.
00:41:38 Kamal: And that led me to the path of writing. But interesting enough, that path of writing and learning how to craft, how to write the craft of writing, how to write like clean, clear prose, which is the hardest thing to do. The simplest process, the hardest so that anyone can get it. But yet make someone feel, with that. Right. No, you don't force someone to feel you. You don't tell them what to feel. You make them feel, which is the hardest thing in art. Right. And so I learned that. And so when I had wrote, Love Yourself, which I never set out to do again, right, I had the craft.
00:42:12 Michael: Yeah.
00:42:13 Kamal: I knew how to write what I had to share. So simply, so true. And also, on the other hand, I had the startup training where it's all very practical. You work with engineers, you write specs that are like books long, which is like every single detail is correct. You break everything down how you need to be done. So I took that mindset as well. And so like that's what made Love Yourself Like Your Life depends on it, not just like a well crafted book. It made an incredibly practical book. And for the record, I still think I'm the only person who has ever written a manual on how to love yourself. That actually works.
00:42:47 Michael: Yeah.
00:42:48 Kamal: It's an actual– I mean, it's a story, but it's also, there's a manual in it, a step by step, very simple manual. And it's all internal work. There's no bubble baths involved. You can take all the bubble baths you want, but it's all just, in a work that anyone can do. Right. No matter where you're in life. And I've had to fall back to it, eat my own dog food. I've gone through some hard stuff. I've ended up in a hospital, a very bad state, hooked up to all these pain meds and just horrible. And having to like [unclear] a gate on this because I know this works. And each time it works and each time I go deeper and I kind of like, the whole, to be a phoenix, you got to burn. So when I went through those hard times, I worked hard and I came out and I really felt like I was better in many ways. And I really do think like, look, if you're going to play this game of life, there's going to be hard times. Right. I don't think anyone gets out of that. The scenery and the details differ, but we all deal with our stuff. And when that happens, we can… our choice is who am I going to be? Eventually, this will pass, time passes and so forth. Who am I going to be? And that's what you work on. Because when the storm passes, who is left on the other side is someone you want to be proud of.
00:44:07 Kamal: And it's a great feeling when the storm passes and you're there standing there and you are way better than you ever were because that's a gift you gave yourself. You're not broken. Right. Like you didn't let this break you. You could have felt broken at times. You're allowed to that. You're human. We're allowed to feel broken. We're allowed to be broken, but we're not allowed to stay broken. That's our choice. You take this and you make it like, you basically forge yourself out of it. Like I don't want to keep going through the experiences. I'm kind of tired of it. I don't want to keep you like, come on, hold down.
00:44:45 Michael: [I don't need to cut so many more mountains]. Yeah.
00:44:48 Kamal: Yeah. Right. But nothing I've learned is the more you do this work, if you do it consistently, like life just gets better. It's a matter of like, keep on it.
00:44:55 Michael: Yep.
00:44:56 Kamal: I find when I get lazy, my life gets a little wonky. So and just for full self preservation and just quality of life, I do it.
00:45:04 Michael: Well, I think what you say underlies multiple parts, like as I'm listening, is when you talked about your father, you made a promise to him in that beautiful moment, which I had with my own father of holding his hand as he crossed the gates. And that promise brought you on your, what I would call, a walkabout, like this journey, which I just did myself after my father passed during covid and I was gone for my own journey for the last year and a half. And, but what's beautiful is I remember I just… I'll share this because I think you'll appreciate it. I had interviewed years ago, Laird Hamilton, the course, the legendary big wave surfer. And I asked him about this wave that he had surfed in Teahupoo, which is a famously horrific break, three feet basically below the water is this razor edge reef. And he surfs this monster big wave. Everyone thought he crashed and he gets spit out of the side. And it's a kind of wave where, if you fall, you die. I mean, there's no… it's not like, you know, you got to be committed. And that's what he shared. He shared he was… because it was interesting as I was interviewing, I asked him what was… what enabled him to surf that wave. And he said basically the equivalent of your vow. He was like, I committed 110%. Right. But he shared with me during the course of that interview was that he was also at the time going through a challenge with his still current wife, Gabby Reece. And it was kind of an aha where I was like, oh, what was the quality that enabled you to get through that very challenging period in your marriage? And he said, the same quality, which was, total 110% commitment. And what I realized, what I'm garnering from what you shared is a similar commitment. Right. Like you committed to your dad, which led you to India. Your journey then led you to this fire within that knew that in part of you, at least I'm guessing, wanted to be a writer. I love that you share that what you wrote at first was kind of crap. And as someone who just, who spent–
00:47:10 Kamal: Oh, it was a steaming [unclear].
00:47:12 Michael: Exactly. It was a crap.
00:47:14 Kamal: Oh, my God.
00:47:14 Michael: By the way, I started to spend–
00:47:16 Kamal: I cried in that bookstore.
00:47:17 Michael: Three and a half years writing a book proposal, which I now finally feel I'm beyond the crap I can relate to. But that same thing of like you're committing through that, right, which then led you to this book, which by the way, for those who don't know, like Love Yourself became like a massive hit. Didn't you start even… I think it was self-published and then a publisher wanted to pick it up, which is also incredibly unusual. Like I don't know how many emails you got, but I'm guessing it's like in the tens of thousands. Like guys, for those of you listening like, you got to get this book. It does not take long to get through, but it's so rich. But like it became, you know, so many people again, the people who talk like this way, I kind of discount but like maybe a movement is too strong of a word, but it got momentum, it got what every author would want, which is it picked up momentum and became this smash and I'm guessing people still write you to this day about the book.
00:48:22 Kamal: Oh, yeah, a lot.
00:48:23 Michael: Exactly.
00:48:25 Kamal: But now especially with Instagram and everything. Yeah, a lot.
00:48:27 Michael: And in part, at least I just want to underlie because it's something that I'm really contending with in myself as, you know, I committed to finish my book by my birthday, which is August 30th. Just in my listening, one is, that the appreciation for the process. But like, there's that saying, “How you do anything is how you do everything.” And what I'm realizing is, as you talked about integrity, as we started the conversation and you talk about your journey with your father, which then segwayed into your journey with writing, what I'm noticing is how this commitment moves through all aspects of that journey, whether it be your interpersonal dynamics, whether it be your professional dynamics. And I would imagine something that underlies your success. I don't want to put words in your mouth. But obviously, I know you, I know you're a successful human and a successful man. And I think for those listening, one of my great frustrations, I mean, you and I both, at least, you, at times, I know you share residences in other places. But one of my great frustrations with California, which I love dearly, is I feel like, integrity of the word isn't the shining virtue of everyone who lives here. I call it a very soft yes culture. By that, I mean, you want to get together next Tuesday? Yes. What does that actually mean? Well, let me check my horoscope. Let me check traffic. Let me see if I got a better option. And then maybe.
00:49:56 Kamal: Not so [fine].
00:49:57 Michael: In other words, it's not a committed culture. And I think, unfortunately, like not to sit on a soapbox, I think that's becoming more and more pervasive around, you know, I see it, that soft commitment culture is becoming more habitual for more people. And I just want to kind of, like drive home that you have demonstrated commitment and it's really ringing true for me and actually something I'm going to… I hold dear as a core value. But I really want to be mindful to my commitments. And what I love also, as you say, it's not about like you can't fail, right? Like it's not about being perfect. It's actually just about being committed through those processes such that you see yourself to the other side. First of all, I just wanted to take a moment to acknowledge you because what I'm hearing is, across these interpersonal journeys and professional journeys is this consistency and a relentless showing up, which I just want to acknowledge you for. But secondly, I'd love to the degree that you're willing to share. And again, the book is in many ways, this manual, perhaps sharing some of the principles or practices. I know you talk about meditation. You talk about ritual that you have found to be central to that process of maintaining and building that muscle of self-love.
00:51:19 Kamal: Sure. I mean, look, overall, this is a Trojan horse to the inner work, which, like you're talking about commitment. As I look back, the greatest things that have come in my life have come from committing to myself. It's not even coming to others because committing to others still comes from a different place. Commit to yourself is you, no one can bullshit. You can't bullshit your way out of it. You can always bullshit your way out of commitments with others. You cannot bullshit with yours. I mean, if you can, you will see it. Right. And so the commemorative itself, I really like because it's a no bullshit zone and it forces you to be more honest with yourself about when you fail. But then you got to get up and you got to do it again.
00:52:08 Michael: Do you have a process… before you jump in, do you have a process for that? Because I know what you talk about in the book, taking your mistakes and writing out a list, which I thought was beautiful. Right. Like of all the things you dislike or you can put it in your own words, obviously. But, and actually being present with that and then burning it and releasing it. And I found that very practical and also like in a way that ritual, I think, enables a turning of the page, both literally and figuratively into that conversation with self. But do you have a process as it relates to a check in with yourself around your commitments or any of these other processes?
00:52:49 Kamal: One of the things that really helps is how powerfully do you do it? Are you doing it as an aside casually, powerfully? So the way I do it, but the way I have done it and this, I mean, I've had a lot of readers reach out, told me this was transformative for them, was a little dimension. The exercise you mentioned that I did years ago that came up with just randomly for an ex-girlfriend was on self forgiveness. Right. Because you really need to… thing is before making a vow, if you have the time, you want to start from a clean place, not carrying all the baggage with you. So what I would do is, I would… I like the ocean, like if I was near the ocean, but you can literally do it with a toilet bowl, water, you can do it with that lighter, whatever. It doesn't really… throw it to the wind. Doesn't matter. I would get a notebook and I would just write down on it, the sentence I forgive myself for. And I would write, forgive myself for X. Then write again, I forgive myself for Y. I would just do it, do it, do it until I was spent, until it was nothing, until I was, like sick. I was reaching, I forgive myself for drinking too much coffee this morning until you're really just like you're done. Right. Now you're getting into the stupid stuff. And then I would sit there and read it out to myself again and again until I was just sick of it. Like out loud again, you realize what you're carrying with you when it's your words written on paper and you read them out loud. You realize just the stupidity of it. I would… and you put, more important you realize the weight you're carrying. And we don't think about it. We are carrying weight.
00:54:21 Michael: Oh, yeah.
00:54:22 Kamal: Right. And you want to be the freest you can be and this is weight that you don't need. What I do is, so I read until I'm sick of it. I'm sick of the weight. I'm just done. Right. I crumple it up. I go out to the ocean, throw it in. But you know, tie a rock around it. Throw it in. It's gone. Right. You can do it in an apartment in New York City. Set it on fire. Then obviously put the fire out. Throw in the toilet bowl. Doesn't really matter, was running you, letting it go. You keep getting rid of it. You felt the weight. You're done. Now is when you go make your vow because now you've just kind of cleared the deck. If you don't, if we just go blind just walking back casually into life and doing a thing with no direction, that’s, those seeds are going to… there's still branches and finds you cut off. But like you leave it. We just go back right. I mean those are going to grow again. So give yourself a clear direction and that becomes your main focus. So for me, it was a [vow that I love myself]. I keep remaking that a lot of times. Right. It's not one and done. So now it's a clear direction that wherever my thoughts go, I got to work in that filter. They got to go through that filter. And when they're not, I got to return to it. Right. So give yourself a clear direction, the vows, a clear direction. You just cut down the vines and you're moving forward with clear purpose. And then when you… there's power in this, when you do with this kind of power, you can't help but stick to it. And then obviously every day what I really recommend people doing is, where you wrote that vow, pick it up a couple of times a day. I know it'll get lazy but put some and then read it to yourself again and read it and feel it, feel the power what you get, did. And that's, you forget motivation, that'll drive you. Really, it's that simple. It's very human. It's becoming, you're basically creating your identity with this. Right. You have the clear purpose. This is your focus. You're doing it and you do it until it becomes a part of you. And then I would say continue it. The mistake I made in the past, I just kind of let it go. What I've learned is, do it again. Like we pick up more garbage along the way and not all the vines are gone. Do it again when you feel the need for it or especially when you're fighting it, when you're fighting, is when you need, the most.
00:56:43 Michael: Yep.
00:56:44 Kamal: Right. Do it again. Do it. It's purely for yourself, is between yourself, for yourself. You don't have to tweet about it. You don't have to Instagram about it. You don’t have to show it to anyone. This is just you. This is you clearing your debt, giving us a clear purpose in a way that's going to transform you and transform your life. I can't think of anything better you can do for yourself because everything comes from there.
00:57:06 Michael: Totally agree.
00:57:07 Kamal: You know.
00:57:07 Michael: I feel like that's… I like that you also said it is, you know, there is that process of either we're getting worse or we're getting better every day and oftentimes when we're getting better, we have a tendency to get lazy and so to continue to stay in the practice of it, like if you're in the recovery movement, for example, continuing, you know, not getting sort of lazy with your practices when you're feeling great in your sobriety actually returning back to the support and knowing that that's building the muscle. I feel like it's so valuable and I love that you're also drawing the distinction that it's you, for you, not necessarily for anyone else. I feel like so much of our filter now becomes about other people and sharing and all of this and I love that the conversation is you, for you. It's a conversation of one which is arguably the most important conversation you can have. But yet I don't think, you know, there was a powerful and it may have been, I mean, was bunch of this was doing research before our conversation. One of the things that got evoked is that this notion I think of, point of reference, right? And it's easy for many of us, especially those who have sort of a people pleaser or a martyr contact. It's like, it's easy for me to advocate for someone else or to take a stand for someone else. Absolutely at consequence of myself, right, and I know this very poignantly because I just injured myself literally moving someone else's shit, which was a metaphor for me, that was a beautiful learning lesson. But that distinction of when you're… of pausing and actually saying, okay, how would I talk to myself if this was someone I deeply loved and cared about, right? Because oftentimes at least for myself, my frame is totally different the way I think of myself and act towards myself versus someone I deeply love and care about, right?
00:59:11 Michael: And for me, it's like, if I think about my best friend or the person who I love the most on the planet and how I want to treat them, it's oftentimes, not the same as the way in which I reflect upon myself. But if I can actually have the moment of pause where I can say, well, hang on, if I was that person, right? How would I be treating myself, and it's so different than the way that I have been treating myself, the critique, the constant… I would never do that if that was my best friend or if that was my lover. Yet I do it to myself all the time. And so somehow that like for me, at least that conversation with myself, that muscle of recognizing that I would do something in a certain way towards someone I love and therefore, I should absolutely show the same degree of concerning consideration for myself if I am actually committed to loving myself and I don't know if that resonates with you at all. But I just feel like there is this pause, wherein I'll totally, I'll show way up for other people, but I haven't always shown up for myself. And once I recognize that actually if I want to commit to loving myself, I've got to show up in the same way that I would for those who I love out in the world, for me, that's been a real… it's been a real revelation.
01:00:32 Kamal: Yeah, like questions are very powerful. There's one that, it's part of the practice that I do and it's so powerful. It's so simple. It's this, during moments and because one has to make a habit of this because no one's going to naturally ask themselves this, but it's a very simple question. It starts with if and the if is important because the mind can't say, but it's if, right? If I love myself truly and deeply, what would I do? So this is a great one with making choices. For example, after this, I'm quite hungry. I haven't eaten today. I've been fasting, but I also haven't worked out today and there's a part of me that would love to just eat and skip the workout. But the other part of me, I know when I ask myself this question, if I love myself truly and deeply, what would I do? I'm going to work out and then I'm going to eat. That question puts it all in perspective because it's between you and you. And also it's not because I love myself, because the mind will say, well, you don't or sometimes but not right now, or when I love myself because then it puts in the future though or… but like you don't put in the future past, you just put it if in the moment, if I love myself truly and deeply. Truly and deeply, like full on, what would I do? Of course, I would go workout. It’s a great one and it's very, very practical.
01:01:54 Michael: Yes.
01:01:55 Kamal: It's one. It's a great way to make, as a practice. We've been pausing the day and just ask, so what if you just go for a walk as a self [unclear], so it becomes a habit. All these things, we have to actually train our mind. Like I said, it's the inner work.
01:02:05 Michael: It is.
01:02:06 Kamal: Right. And you basically, training this wild monkey inside your skull and you know that takes patience, that takes a lot of repetition. It does not happen naturally. If it did, none of, you know, maybe some people it is, but like for the rest of us, we need to learn and write books about it.
01:02:23 Michael: Yeah.
01:02:27 Kamal: But that of course… that if statement, if then, if is a very, very powerful thing to do. I highly recommend anyone who's listening, just implement that and your life will be better.
01:02:38 Michael: Yeah. I'm writing that down actually because that is an extraordinarily powerful one and I want to be mindful about your workout and your time. So I'm going to draw.
01:02:51 Kamal: Oh, I'm enjoying this. Take your time.
01:02:52 Michael: I'm going to draw, move closer towards a conclusion. But one of the things that you just evoked, that I think I would love to get clarity on for those listening is, in that process, say that there's a moment where you know, if you were to love yourself, you would go work out. There are moments where, instead you crush a bag of Cheeto… you get a bad phone call and you crush a bag–
01:03:16 Kamal: Yep, that happen.
01:03:16 Michael: Of Cheetos and you go down a self-loathing or whatever, you watch television. So in the moment and that's a small thing, but there are much bigger instances of where we get, let's call it, off track at the very least, but as it relates to the topic of forgiveness of self and as it relates to the context of forgiveness of others, which you evoked a bit in your discussion earlier, which I loved, one of the key distinctions was that notion of humanity and seeing the humanity for example in your father. That’s very powerful for me because I'm doing some deep forgiveness work myself right now. Are there other ways in which you feel people can come to the power of forgiveness of self when they get off track?
01:04:03 Kamal: Remember, none of this requires perfection. This time, when I’ll ask myself that question and I'll still do what I shouldn't do, but you know what? You start to talk about honesty with yourself. Eventually as human beings, we all naturally want to be better and sooner or later, you're going to say, you know what, if I get, I'm going to do the thing I should, that if I love myself, I would do it. There's no perfection here.
01:04:27 Michael: No.
01:04:27 Kamal: It's just commitment in doing it.
01:04:28 Michael: Yeah.
01:04:29 Kamal: And you will naturally rise. That's, we’re designed for it, we're designed to rise to be better, we just have to give ourselves the practices that guide us there, that's it. Like there's no… so there's no need to consider and try to forgive yourself for messing up, there just, be honest with yourself and a question, asking this yourself and you choose not to do it, you're just being honest with yourself, you're not doing it on autopilot. And eventually get tired of that person who's doing it, you know, who's not doing it because you keep asking yourself a question, you'll want to be that person who loves himself truly deeply and takes those actions. So for that, I don't think self-forgiveness of it matters, self-forgiveness is more I think just the crud we pick up and living life, all the crud the mind picks up and the… whatever we do in fact, a lot of things we need, if I told you I had to forgive myself for this, you'd laugh at me. It's just our own thing, right? Like we add a lot more weight that we need to do things but, so it's just for that.
01:05:30 Michael: What about with other people?
01:05:32 Kamal: Giving us, sorry?
01:05:33 Michael: Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. Well, let me clarify that question. So one of the things that I think about is, and I talk about, for example, in the book I'm writing is this notion of batteries and black holes, right? Like so there are people at least in my life that I've realized whenever I'm around them, they charge me up, like whether it be intellectually, emotionally, like you draw the distinction of feeling and using your feelings as a thermostat, like whenever I've been with you, for example, at Craig's place, I've had nothing but positive experience with you. Like to me, you're a battery in my life, right? Like and so I… and also, right, like you're an accomplished author, like I'm not saying that that's why I hang out with you, it's just to say like, I feel like you're aligned to the life that I want to live, right? And what I think, a lot of people have in their lives and I have had in my life are black holes, people that sort of drag you down energetically perhaps and again, not just come from a place of a victim mentality but perhaps call out our own sense of self loathing or the voices within us that are not the most self loving, so to speak. How do you think about, because of course, and I love that this is a conversation one of one, but also as we are in the world and we are in the multitude of inputs, that are seeking to take our time and attention. How do you think about maintaining this practice granted imperfectly as it relates to the self love that comes from perhaps effective boundaries or a context whereby you're limiting the way in which other inputs and sometimes those are people drag you down, for lack of a better term? If you have someone in your life that you feel is really truly energetically a black hole in terms of they’re toxic or they make you feel a certain way, do you have any thoughts around how to be self loving in the context of relationship or any distinctions around how to know whether someone in your life you want to continue to double down on or perhaps not see you have to cut them out, but you want to expand and actually think about having relationships with other people because you become more loving of yourself and they're no longer reflection of your journey.
01:07:57 Kamal: Yeah, honestly loving yourself results in better boundaries. You don't need to go out to set them. The more you think highly of yourself in a way that you want the best for yourself, you're going to immediately start, if you want the best for yourself, there are choices you’re gonna have to make. If I love myself, what would I do? And you start, you know, what I've gotten to and I've gotten pretty strict about this, but after all that I went through, I realized like nothing is worth my time, no one is worth my time if they're not good for me. I just disappear from their life. I don't care. I do not owe anyone, explanation. I know the values of the man I am, the values I live, right? So I don't need any excuses, explanation, apologies. I just live.
01:08:49 Michael: Yeah.
01:08:50 Kamal: And I am, no qualms about dropping someone from my life. Zero. If they're not, like if they're bad for me, they're gone. And because the older you get, the more you go, the more you realize, oh my God, all that was time wasted.
01:09:04 Michael: Totally.
01:09:05 Kamal: Like I’d rather be home, I'd rather be home alone reading a book with my dog.
01:09:08 Michael: Yes.
01:09:10 Kamal: Than being with someone that I know is not good for me.
01:09:12 Michael: Yeah.
01:09:14 Kamal: Really, my dog, I mean really, like that's kind of my filter now. Would I give up time with my dog and a good book? Yes.
01:09:19 Michael: Beautiful filter.
01:09:21 Kamal: And it… right, it's a great filter. And you know what, and as you drop those, you open space for others to come in, who actually do add to your life. And I think that's a really important thing to learn, it's always like that you find that people in the elderly, they just don't, you know, they don't care anymore, they'll say whatever's on their mind, they'll tell you to screw off, it's like, why don't we… had to do this earlier? Our lives would be… why do you have to wait, with that long because you realize the world goes on. People's lives don't fall apart. Your life doesn't fall apart. There's a great thing, Oprah she talked about how she led the most important thing she ever learned to say was no. And the first time she was a people pleaser, right, and especially once she made it big, people would show up to her house just saying, like, look, I just left my husband. I need some money, and she's like, well I had it, so. She said, but don't worry, don't come now because I figured it out, I learned how to say no. And she said the first time she said no, she thought the world will fall apart and the person would hate her. It was like, okay, that's cool, see you later. And she realized, okay, that was for me, right? And that's a very important thing, to lesson to learn in life is to say no, to know what doesn't serve us. And it's harder when you're people pleaser because I've been that way myself. Obviously, like, I have a few, very few close people that I will, that can cross boundaries, it's just… that's a right they've earned or family, whatever, that's a right you got to earn. I used to give people that right by proxy of just coming into my life, that is such a big mistake I made. I used to give the right in relationships to know, you got to earn their right to be across that boundary if not, I'll be very clear about my boundaries and that's a boundary. And if you're not respecting it, well look, I'm gonna go read a book with my dog. I won't even tell them, I'll just disappear.
01:11:17 Michael: Beautifully said.
01:11:18 Kamal: And I don't care and it's beautiful, the world doesn't fall apart, their lives go on, your lives go on, and all is good.
01:11:25 Michael: Yeah, and I think what I've realized is I've aging a bit here, is our true wealth in life at least for me is health, like we started this conversation. There's no greater wealth than your health. And for me, if you're good fortune brings great people in your life, it's the people you get to share that with, but like you said, the inner work, and our friend [Neil Strauss], this notion of sort of our inner and outer game, but as we focus on our inner world, the external world shifts accordingly, right? Like the two are dramatically interdependent and interrelated and I think just to take a moment to acknowledge you, Kamal, I think you've written a very accessible book but beyond a book, you've created a context for a conversation that people can have with themselves to liberate themselves from the weight that we so often carry through our lives. And there's a movie De Niro did, I think it was called The Mission, where he was–
01:12:31 Kamal: Oh, what a great movie. The soundtrack and the [unclear].
01:12:35 Michael: And he's carrying–
01:12:36 Kamal: It was amazing.
01:12:37 Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know if you’re… for those who haven't, say, he's walking through this hot tropical jungle and he's repenting for his sin and he's carrying a bag with armor, so like I don't know hundreds of pounds of dead weight. And so many of us, myself included, have walked through life with that kind of dead weight that we carry and it keeps us from our potential, from our possibility, and from the love that we all deserve within ourselves and to share as a beacon of love with others and I think the deeper we go on that journey, I notice, the more that other people that are aligned and the kind of people I want my life, show up. And it's not lost on me that you, as a now, newer, but I would consider good friend have shown up and I just want to acknowledge you because I think you have put that light out there in the world that people can utilize to see and then shed that unnecessary weight that they carry through their life.
01:13:44 Kamal: Yeah, thank you, man. Thank you. It's like after I turned in the final draft of Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It to HarperOne, which was in I think September 2019 I turned because it came out January 2020, was when I went into the hospital for the [elective] surgery and they messed up really badly. I basically died and all this massive shit show that happened afterwards, lost two years of my life. I remember like dying and like bleeding to death, spring blood everywhere, and dying and realize, and I woke up the next… woke up, they had a team, surgical team that came in and stopped it, right? And saved me, and I'm waking up and in the hospital, in a really messed up state. It was severe trauma and thinking, I almost left this planet, but I shipped the book. I gave the book to the publisher. The publisher was already committed there to get the contract. It was coming out that the presses were ready and so the book would come out, that would have been my gift to the world. And I knew that if I had gone and that was the gift I left behind, I was fine with it because I would have left behind something that the world is better because that was here.
01:15:04 Michael: That's it.
01:15:04 Kamal: And it's purely between me and life, right? It was just the world, if we can do that in our own way, it can be anything. You don't have to write a book or be on social media, anything and it's just in a community, whatever. In fact, the best people I know, a lot of us well I know are not on social media and not anywhere, no one calls themselves an alpha male, they’re just doing stuff in that community, changing lives, just being an example, like what do we do? It's, if you exit, when you exit, your time comes to exit, you know that whatever the show was, it was slightly better because–
01:15:40 Michael: That's there.
01:15:41 Kamal: That's it. That gave me peace knowing that.
01:15:45 Michael: It's who you're being. I think societal, we have this notion.
01:15:50 Kamal: Yes.
01:15:50 Michael: We have this notion that–
01:15:51 Kamal: Yes.
01:15:51 Michael: Oh, if I do a certain thing, then I'll have a certain thing and then I'll be happy, which is actually, ask backwards. It's like, it's who we’re being. And from that level of being that everything proceeds and your journey and who you were being led to this, what I would call, an offering. And what I love about what you just shared and it's an inspiration for me as I hone in on my offering is it's a reflection of your beingness and an authentic expression of that beingness. And to me, those are the most beautiful offerings, right, because it's not a construct of your head and like what you think something needs to be, it's a natural outgrowth of who you are. I'll say with my father, for example, who I love dearly, he wasn't on social media, he didn't write a book. But the way he showed up when he would… kids or dog, like you read your dog some… they light up because it was just his presence, you know, the way he walked through the world was his offering and I feel like, for those listening, I just feel like everyone's got their own unique song and it's, I feel like it's our job to figure out which notes don't belong, which notes are crowding, that are making our signal noisy so that we can sing our own unique song. And to me, what you talk about through your work, through this book and who you are is a beacon to help people sing their unique song. So that's my own expression, but I'm grateful for you, my man.
01:17:32 Kamal: Beautiful, thank you.
01:17:32 Michael: Grateful for your offering.
01:17:34 Kamal: Thank you. It's mutual, man, thank you.
01:17:37 Michael: So Kamal Ravikant, go get the book. I mean, you've written several but where can people find you?
01:17:45 Kamal: Instagram, Twitter. And then there's a new [social software] coming out called AirChat which Naval Ravikant and Brian Norgard put together and they're trying to make us one which is actually true conversations, is about really communicating with each other rather than just going for the likes. You'll find me a lot there as it comes out of closed beta because it's about conversations with people. I really enjoy it. That's AirChat, but it's in [closed beta] right now, but you'll hear about it, come find me there, any one of these, and our Google, the Googles are at ChatGPT.
01:18:23 Michael: Yeah, yeah. And also you're one of the few people I know actually go by his book, he's got his email in there, and he actually answers his email, I don't know if I'm supposed–
01:18:33 Kamal: Yeah, that’s true.
01:18:33 Michael: To shout you out like that, but another–
01:18:35 Kamal: Yeah, please. I love and I [unclear].
01:18:38 Michael: Well, man, thank you for taking the time. What time?
01:18:42 Kamal: Oh, dude, I sometimes fall behind, but I always get back.
01:18:46 Michael: Bro, I don't know that many people to get tens of thousands of emails that take the time to respond to all of them so even if you take a little time, I think it's appreciated. And for those of you, get the book which I highly recommend you do. Take a little time to say a little thank you. I feel like I am grateful for you and I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us, my man.
01:19:09 Kamal: Dude, it was great. Thank you so much.
01:19:10 Michael: Pleasure.