What if the loneliness epidemic doesn't start in our relationships — but in the hours we spend alone in the dark? In this profound conversation, Michael Trainer sits down with Dr. Suhas Kshirsagar — the former personal physician to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and one of the world's foremost Ayurvedic physicians — and Dr. Sheila Patel, a pioneer bridging integrative medicine with Vedic wisdom, to explore their groundbreaking new book Awakened Sleep. What begins as a conversation about sleep science becomes a revelation about consciousness, technology-induced loneliness, and why the most powerful hours of your biology are the ones you've been ignoring. Dr. Suhas introduces the startling concept of orthosomnia — a new syndrome affecting 40% of Gen Z adults who have developed sleep anxiety from the very devices designed to optimize their rest. He names email apnea — the phenomenon of people literally holding their breath while reading texts. And he shares the Vedic teaching that reframes everything: "We are doing a dress rehearsal of dying every night." Dr. Sheila offers the science behind the wisdom — how Stanford's AI models can now predict 130+ health conditions from sleep data alone, why sleep outranks diet and exercise as a health predictor, and how sensory overload throughout the day makes it physiologically impossible to rest at night. Together, they map the Ayurvedic framework of doshas to sleep — revealing why one-size-fits-all sleep advice fails, why your constitution determines your lifelong relationship with rest, and how practices as simple as breath, mantra, and an oil massage can retrain the nervous system for deep, restorative, conscious sleep. This episode is essential listening for anyone who has ever lain awake at night wondering why they can't shut off their mind — and for anyone who suspects that the answer might be far more ancient, and far more beautiful, than a better mattress.
Dr. Suhas Kshirsagar, BAMS, MD (Ayurveda) One of the most academically accomplished Ayurvedic physicians in the Western world. Former personal physician to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Bestselling author of Change Your Schedule, Change Your Life and co-author of Awakened Sleep. Faculty at numerous integrative medicine programs. Trained in both classical Ayurvedic medicine and modern clinical research. His work bridges 5,000 years of Vedic wisdom with cutting-edge neuroscience and AI-driven health research. Renowned globally for his clinical expertise and his ability to make the ancient tradition accessible, scientific, and immediately practical.
Dr. Sheila Patel, MD Board-certified family medicine physician and a leading voice in integrative health. Former Chief Medical Officer of the Chopra Center. Co-author of Awakened Sleep. Dr. Patel's clinical practice synthesizes conventional medicine with Ayurvedic principles, meditation, and mind-body approaches. She has spent decades helping patients understand the connection between emotional regulation, sensory awareness, and physical health — with sleep as the connective thread.
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Dr. Suhas: "We are doing a dress rehearsal of dying every night. We go to the same place where we were before we were born and long after we will be gone."
"Sleep outweighs diet and exercise. If you rank lifestyle things, sleep is even higher ranked than diet and exercise and loneliness."
"Orthosomnia — about 40% of Gen Z adults are experiencing sleep anxiety because of the gadgets they are wearing."
"Where your attention goes, that's where the energy is flowing."
"These techniques are not free. They are very expensive — because the most expensive commodity right now is me time."
"An introspective sage is awake when the rest of the world is sleeping." — Bhagavad Gita
Dr. Sheila: "Sleep is an active process. It's not just rest — it's an active rest."
"So much of depression, anxiety is that disconnect from nature, disconnect from community. Everyone's all in their own individual bubbles."
"Pick the weeds, plant some seeds, water them with gratitude."
"We have so many tools within us — and with our breath, it's free."
Michael: "I think a lot of us as humans have lost our way with all of the conflicting signals. And it's hard in a noisy world to find true signal that reminds us of who we are and how we can find our way home."
Dr. Suhas Kshirsagar: [website] | [Instagram]
Dr. Sheila Patel: [website] | [Instagram]
Michael Trainer: michaeltrainer.net | @michaeltrainer | Resonance Podcast
Resonance: The Art and Science of Human Connection arrives May 5, 2026 from BenBella Books. Foreword by Steven Pressfield, author of The War of Art.
"Outstanding. I wouldn't change a word." — Steven Pressfield
Read Michael's full essay on this conversation: "The Dress Rehearsal for Dying: What Vedic Sleep Science Reveals About Why We Can't Connect" — exploring how orthosomnia, somniphobia, and the loneliness epidemic collide with the Resonance framework and the Seven Pillars of authentic connection.
https://substack.com/@michaeltrainer
Michael Trainer (00:00.236)
good start and did how are you feeling now because I'm about to launch my book in May it's my first time you guys have done this but is do you get to relax a little bit after launch or you just has a long tail and you continue to think about it push etc
Sheila Patel (00:13.998)
Thank
Dr Suhas (00:19.203)
I think it just continues. It slows down a little bit significantly after it launches. But it keeps on happening. keeps on happening. Suddenly there's a lot of work to do and then we can relax.
Sheila Patel (00:20.984)
Thank you.
Sheila Patel (00:28.014)
Thank
Michael Trainer (00:32.683)
Yes.
Sheila Patel (00:32.846)
Yeah, it's been an interesting process. I thought I thought as well, like, now it's, you know, done, I can move on. It's like, no, no, you have to keep talking about it.
Michael Trainer (00:35.522)
Amazing.
Michael Trainer (00:44.274)
Yeah, exactly. It's the next several years of your life, guess. Until the next one, so to speak.
Sheila Patel (00:49.102)
I'm do it.
Dr Suhas (00:51.897)
Abdu-Rakha.
Michael Trainer (00:53.354)
Excellent. Well, we'll go for about an hour if that works for both of you. You know, we can go wherever you want. I did the audio book in terms of listening, but I also put together a list of questions. Kind of more thinking about it from like, okay, if I'm a listener and I don't know much about Ayurveda or I don't know much about the principle of awake and sleep and as it relates to Ayurveda, kind of.
walk into the basics, that set doesn't mean we can't jump into the deep end and go into consciousness and all the things that we love. So why don't we just get started and then if there's a certain direction, I don't know if there's anything you definitely do want to talk about or don't want to talk about, but we can steer it in whatever direction works best for you guys.
Dr Suhas (01:39.909)
Well, you go with the flow because I am aware of your journey and what peak mind is all about and I understand your interest in neurobiology and consciousness and so we can make it a little bit more unique and tailor-made for the resonance type of audience, I would say.
Michael Trainer (02:02.464)
I I would love that. I would love that. let's, let me take a deep breath and then let's just jump right into it.
Dr Suhas (02:12.815)
Ahem.
Michael Trainer (02:28.928)
All right, welcome to Resonance. I'm your host, Michael Treanor. And today I have the deep honor and privilege of hosting both an old friend, Dr. Suhas, and a new friend, Dr. Sheila. It's wonderful to have you both on the show. And today we also get to celebrate a gift that you have birthed into the world.
awakened sleep and a new perspective, I think around one of the most misunderstood aspects of both our biology and also our consciousness, which is sleep. So could we start off perhaps if you could both maybe share your insights because it's quite a provocative, you know, notion awakened sleep into what sleep actually is from an Ayurvedic perspective.
and how it can be a doorway to greater consciousness.
Dr Suhas (03:25.849)
Well, I'll start and let Dr. Sheila carry on further. So from my perspective, I think you're absolutely right. It's a very catchy title and we get a lot of compliments on this, awake and sleep, because we often feel sleep as a deep slumber where you're disconnected, you're tired, you're exhausted and you go away somewhere and then God knows where you come back from next day morning. So that is a kind of a feeling that many people correlate sleep with.
Sheila Patel (03:49.39)
Thanks.
Dr Suhas (03:54.179)
But from a Vedic perspective, sleep can be a journey into consciousness. Sleep can be an extension to your meditation practice. Sleep can be another gateway to enliven your higher states of awareness and consciousness. And if you do it properly, you can actually witness and observe yourself falling asleep, staying asleep, even dreaming and continue into those bardos and lokas where
you are transcending the three basic realities of consciousness, either you sleeping, dreaming or awake, you get into the fourth state of consciousness. And I think all the Vedic literature, Vedic hymns, Upanishads, Buddhist literature, everybody talks about that sleep as a mystical experience. And that is what we have tried to decode and simplify to our readers in this book.
Sheila Patel (04:50.508)
Yeah, I just would add to that. Yeah, I would just add to that that, yeah, there's so much happening when we're sleeping. think the what's been fun is to share the Ayurvedic perspective of sleep as well as what modern sleep science now is showing us, which is really validating that sleep is is an active process. You know, it's not just it is rest, yes, but it's an active rest. So there's all kinds of physical, you know, physiological things happening, physical healing.
Michael Trainer (04:50.562)
beautifully said, Emma. Happy to hear it.
Sheila Patel (05:20.002)
There's all kinds of emotional processing and emotional regulation going on. And, and also there's the whole spiritual realm of where we go when we sleep, which science really can't answer. And that's where I've really enjoyed learning more about the Vedic perspective on what happens when we sleep. And, you know, one of the things I love about Ayurveda is it does address that.
physical, mental, and spiritual space all at the same time. And that's all of our life is an integration of all of those different realms. And so I've just enjoyed sharing, as we do in the book, the science behind what we can at least measure that what's happening during these times. And it really does correlate to what Ayurveda has been teaching for thousands of years.
Michael Trainer (06:13.922)
Yeah, I think we're living in such a unique time because so much of what was exalted thousands of years ago in this extraordinarily advanced philosophy, science way of living in this Vedic wisdom is now being substantiated with modern tools. And it's really quite incredible. it's interesting. So from a scientific perspective, so I've been, I wear, we talked about this, think last time we chatted, we've all got the aura rings on.
Sheila Patel (06:44.152)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (06:44.544)
And it's been wild because for me, one of the things I've been realizing is how my nervous system interacts with different environments and how it's regulated or not regulated with different environments in part based on how I'm largely by my sleep and my HRV. And for example, since we last spoke, I was in Austin, Texas and had no idea, but I had an acute allergy to cedar pollen. And it just...
way I knew it was I could not enter into deep sleep. I could not clear, which I know from my father's dementia, one of the ways that we clear, take out the trash is when we enter into that deep sleep at night. So for those who are listening that may not have a deep familiarity with Ayurveda, think one of the things that's so interesting is the notion of the doshas. one of the things we're seeing, for example, in another aspect of health and wellbeing,
is a personalized approach to medicine and the fact that, for example, one diet may not be the perfect solution for everyone. And actually, we can have individualized approaches. Ayurveda has been doing this for thousands of years. Can you talk a little bit about how Ayurveda approaches your unique individual constitution and how that might translate into principles that we should take into consideration?
as it relates to sleep.
Dr Suhas (08:13.847)
I'll let Sheila speak to that, but what I'm just going to connect with what you were talking about, Michael, about pollen allergies affecting your sleep. There was a very interesting study that got published in January, 2025. was Stanford Medicine's AI model, where they look at about 65,000 participants and almost 600,000 hours of recorded sleep. And it's an AI-generated model.
which they were able to predict the risk of about 130 plus health condition. And when you're sleeping or when you're trying to sleep, the multimodal sleep data sheet, they're looking at the brain wave, they're looking at the respiratory air flow, they're looking at snoring, they are looking at blood oxygen level, they're looking at heart activity, leg movement, everything which is related, which is telling us that
the brain which may look asleep but the heart that is awake. And now we have reached to a stage where we can confidently say that sleep outweighs diet and exercise. So if you rank lifestyle things, sleep is even higher ranked than diet and exercise and loneliness. So I think we are reaching to this stage where we have to go back to understanding from an Ayurvedic perspective, sleep as a tripod of life.
as a tripod of life and we have to really understand that how we contribute to this and that is the reason why we need to make it more personalized. We have to understand who we are, what our dosha type is. I will let Sheila speak to that and I can add to that a little bit.
Sheila Patel (09:58.07)
Yeah, I think that is really where medicine is headed is that one size does not fit all. And Ayurveda being a, you know, traditional healing system, it's thousands of years old for people who are new to Ayurveda. It was first described in India thousands of years ago, but it's very much based on the laws of nature, you know, and how nature functions as a human being. And part of that is that we're all different, we're all unique. And although there are general classes of
types, and we would say phenotypes now, you know, in science, that there's different tendencies that different people have. And so in Ayurveda, it gives us a qualitative way, a way of understanding ourselves and those around us, and our patterns. So these concepts called doshas can mean many things. But one of the things when it applies to us are these principles that exist in our body. And there three main doshas, vata, pitta and kapha.
And they all represent different aspects, principles of nature. So the elements space, air, fire, water, earth are just terms that describe different principles. And when we come into the world, in Ayurveda, that's a time of conception, our tendencies, our dosha, our nature is determined. And that will stay true for our whole lives, our tendencies. So it's very much like, you know, at the time of conception, we get half our genes from, you know, each parent and that's
that will predict our tendencies for our whole life. That doesn't change. But what does change is how the experiences around us and how our choices affect that balance of those doshas. And so the Vata types have more of the qualities of air and space, light, dry, mobile, quick, and cold, just like air and space represent.
Pitta types are fire and water. So they have the qualities, more of the qualities of heat, intensity, it's sharp, you know, again, mobile, so moving and doing things. These are, you know, vata types are like the light and airy types. Pitta types are the fiery, kind of more direct and intense types. And kapha types are water and earth. So more of the heavy qualities, soft, cold, slow,
Sheila Patel (12:17.29)
So that those are the qualities that are going to show up in their lives more often. And so in the book, we have different quizzes to determine your sleep type, because based on your nature, you will have a certain tendency, you know, with your lifelong relationship with sleep, for example, vatas typically, because they are light and airy and sort of more open, they're open to a lot of stimulation, and may have always found it hard to fall asleep or stay asleep, they're light sleepers.
Pitta's can do things rather intensely. maybe short amounts of time, you know, they've always been able to, you know, function with the, they do everything with high efficiency, including sleep. And then Kapha types are the, you know, earth and water, the heaviness that we need to help fall asleep. I'm more of that type. So I've never had trouble sleeping or falling asleep. Sleep is like our superpower.
So, you know, it's, and I find this to be true in all the patients and Dr. Suhas as well that we've seen over the years. And there are different, we have all of those principles within us. So any of them can get out of balance. So even though my nature is to sleep well during different circumstances, different times of life, different seasons, I, you know, can sometimes need some more support to fall asleep.
And so yeah, so it's very interesting and such a intuitive way to determine your nature and what what you need and your again, tendencies towards sleep. And so many people when they learn about their nature and their doshas, there's like, this explains so much of my life. And, and then we go through in the book, all of the things that can disrupt our natural ability to sleep, including
getting one of these doshas out of balance and how you can bring those back to balance. And so there's questionnaires and quizzes and, because each person has to find out what is the root cause of the sleep issue and what can I do about it? And so it's really a guidebook to help people figure that out.
Michael Trainer (14:24.065)
Yeah, beautifully said. I've met a lot of pieces I felt. Sorry, go ahead, Dr. Suhas.
Dr Suhas (14:24.156)
And I think what you
No, no, I think I will add to what Dr. Patel is saying is that it may sound very poetic when we read about the doshas, but it regulates the hardware and the software of the body both. It regulates the cells, tissues, nutrition, pathways, circulation, and it also talks about mind, emotions, feelings. So to use the word phenotype is something what is going on with the phenotype.
in what kind of genotype they are exposed to. So Ayurveda is an epigenetic science. So genes are okay. That's what you are blessed or cursed with with your parents. But what environment you are exposed to is what is making them turn on or turn off. The healthier one can be turned off or the unhealthier one could be turned on. So things can happen in where you live. And in that environment your innate conditioned response, there's a word
that we use for mind in Ayurveda and yoga which is very unique called as Chitta. Chitta simply means conditioned consciousness. So it's almost as if there are these software limitations that you are blessed with that that's how a Vata mind responds. That's how a Pitta mind responds. This is how the Kapha mind responds to a given situation and how you regulate that, how you organize that. You cannot change the hardware, but you can always upgrade the software.
You can clear the kinks, can clear the viruses, can empty the caskets, whatever you can do in order to improve that and upgrade it so that your body doesn't feel the brunt of it. And I think this language of the doshas is absolutely scientific from my perspective.
Michael Trainer (16:13.795)
Beautifully said. think it begs the question, which I'd love each of your perspectives on, of what are some of the things from a basic principle? And this is where I actually really recommend people get the book. I did the audio book and I it was phenomenal. Because you can find out more about your Doshia and the specific aspect of how you can cater these principles to who you are.
from a universal perspective, right? Like, so some of the things that have come out, you know, recently is the importance, for example, ideally of consistent sleep and wake times. For me, one of the things that I've been doing is sleeping in a cool environment. I didn't realize how much that impacted my sleep. There's obviously a variety of different things that are coming up, but can you share a little bit about some of the tools that people can utilize to set themselves up
for a great night of restful sleep or the basis for awakened sleep.
Dr Suhas (17:19.397)
I'll give some objective tips to start with. Number one, you said, cooler. Cooler environment is really, really good, but it has to be a cooler environment, which is not unpleasant. If you are a Vata type, that cold freezing nature is really problematic. Is that right? And that's why we see all these ads everywhere where your side of the bed can be cooler and my side of the bed could be warmer. So the husband and wife don't fight about it. So
That is the challenge all the time we see. So it has to be cooler. It has to be pleasantly cool. But even more than that, it has to be dark. It has to be total dark. There should not be any blinking lights anywhere in the room or sounds of any kind. It has to be soundproof. It has to be noiseproof and it has to be lightproof. Those are the two things. And avoiding blue light because blue light delays the release of the melatonin that you need to help you stay asleep.
So whenever you're exposing yourselves to the reader, iPad, television screen, computers, blue light emanating from that in a dark room is what delays the release of that. So avoiding blue light at least a couple of hours before you go to sleep. Avoiding caffeine after three o'clock in the afternoon would allow you to sleep better. Alcohol is a real problem because it heats you up. Is that right? It's a heating thing. And so...
You may feel that you can fall asleep but you will invariably wake up feeling hot, warm, thirsty and then will disturb your sleep as such. And the last thing is exposure to daylight sunlight is what is going to decide the quality of your sleep. So the more you are exposed to day sunlight outdoors, the better you are going to sleep in the night. The sun regulates the moon in some way. The outdoor light
regulates the activities that the body tries to carry out in the night and the consistency you said that. I know you are a migratory bird and you travel a lot. So it can be so challenging with the jet lag with the travels with different types of beds and different living conditions in on a travel schedule sometimes can be challenging but creating a routine no matter where you are.
Sheila Patel (19:26.606)
you
Dr Suhas (19:41.701)
whether you do an oil massage, whether you take a hot shower, whether you take your aroma therapy also, something that you create your sleep environment wherever you are, that you have to learn and practice that regularly. And I think that is also the message of the book. you can add a few things.
Sheila Patel (20:00.332)
Yeah, think, you know, there definitely are things that help just our physiology in general, they're going to be true for for most of us, right. And Dr. Suhas mentioned, all of those things will help all of us to sleep better, as well as having some sort of movement, you know, an activity during the day, builds up certain chemicals in our brain like adenosine, that that then by evening time, create what we call sleep pressure.
So it's creating this natural urge to sleep, which we have. And so all of those things are good for all of us. The regular sleep-wake cycle they're finding in science is potentially the most important aspect because we can train our physiology. We can train our body. We see this with pets. They don't wear watches and they don't know what time it is, but by the minute they can tell you it's time for their walk or their meal or what have you because of the biological signals. And we're the same way.
So regular meals, regular sleep cycle trains our physiology. And then the difference is with those individual things, the type of movement, the type of food, the type of activity we do during the day, whether it's warmer or cooler, as far as temperature, yes, our body needs to body temperature needs to drop to get into certain sleep stages. But that temperature can be different for different people of what's ideal. So that's where you can fine tune.
based on individual doshas and figure out what's right for each person where the one size doesn't fit all. also in sleep, you know, you can look up sleep hygiene, you know, and you'll find the same information on, know, everywhere you look. And that's very important, the two to three hours before sleep. But the quality of your night, we say depends on the quality of your day as well. So from the moment you wake up, looking at the morning sun, getting sun throughout the day, but also one of the main things
that can interfere with falling asleep as well as frequent awakening is that nervous system. If our nervous system is a little over-activated and in a little bit of sympathetic over arousal, the parasympathetic sympathetic nervous system have to be in good balance. And there's a reason we call the parasympathetic nervous part of our nervous system, rest and digest, because that's what helps us fall asleep and get into all these sleep stages.
Sheila Patel (22:22.37)
So when we're over aroused, overstimulated all day long through the senses, constant noise, constant, you know, screens, constant activity, then by the time the two to three hours before bed show up, sometimes it's, we're so heightened, that doesn't even work for us. So I see a lot of people like that. So we have a whole chapter in the book about, you know, sensory awareness and just being aware of how much sensory overload. We live in a completely sensory overloaded
modern society, unless people are lucky enough to like live out in the woods or somewhere, you know, where there, there aren't a lot of stressors and noises and leaf blowers and all the things that, you know, I hear all day long. you have to pay attention to that. And the nice thing about Ayurveda is that it gives us practices we can do all throughout the day, whether it's breathing practices or simply closing your eyes or, know, doing some eye exercises or some gentle stretching.
there we do have these internal mechanisms to sort of increase that parasympathetic tone so that by the time we're ready to go to sleep, you we can go to sleep. that's one thing I kind of focus on for everyone is what are you doing throughout the day that is kind of giving your nervous system and your senses a little bit of a break so that then, you know, you can fall asleep at night.
Dr Suhas (23:47.151)
Well, I think Michael, you have seen my earlier book, Change Your Schedule, Change Your Life. And the two things that are really very important that affect our sleep. Number one is your evening meal. How late you are eating. The more close to bedtime you're eating, the more poor sleep you're going to have. You have to end up in eating a lighter dinner at least three hours or two hours before you go to sleep. Okay, that doesn't mean that
Michael Trainer (23:52.804)
Okay.
Dr Suhas (24:16.515)
You can eat at 11 and go to sleep at 2 o'clock in the night or something like that. One of the things that I said in that book was eat late to gain some weight, sleep late to gain some weight. And if you're doing both, then nothing can help you. Because I think eating late is one of the biggest aspects that influences your sleep. So eating a lighter dinner, which allows you to not only feel that you have digested the food and you can sleep,
but it actually easily makes you wake up in the early 5 or 6 hours in the morning because you eat late and you wake up dull, heavy, groggy and invariably tired which is often happening because of late and heavy dinner. That's one aspect. So food and last meal is very important affecting your sleep and the second is exercise. You have to be pleasantly tired. The body has to be pleasantly tired as Sheila was saying all day long.
Many people have sedentary jobs, they work from home or they work in tiny cubicles, look at the stupid screen all day long and there's nothing that the body is tired. Physically, you're not tired. Your mind is exhausted, but that may allow you to fall asleep, but that doesn't give you the quality of rest. When you're pleasantly tired with physical movement, exercise, with a lighter dinner, going to sleep properly, all of that adds up. So I think the wisdom is not doing
Tell me one thing that I can do that will change my sleep. You have to do all of them.
Sheila Patel (25:48.738)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michael Trainer (25:50.999)
Yeah, what you guys just shared so many powerful tools. And I think one of the things that comes to me as I was listening is, I'm like, okay, yes, tick, tick, tick. One of the things that I think is evoked is so much of this science, for example, and so much of this wisdom evolved in a time that looked very different from today. But doesn't necessarily mean our...
know, our biology is still wired in that way, right? Like we're still as humans wired towards, you know, this several hundred thousand years of evolution and tribal community and the balance that was afforded through circadian rhythms and regular sleep schedules and moving throughout the day, you know, which unfortunately there's a powerful Terence McKenna quote where he said, the world has changed more since 1992 than it did in the previous thousand years. You know, we're in this,
Sheila Patel (26:45.08)
Thank
Michael Trainer (26:46.926)
period of very rapid evolution with the advent of the internet, now with artificial intelligence. And as you said earlier, the stimulation that it brings and frankly, the stressors, know, like the thing that I've been, you know, to make it kind of personal that I've been dealing with lately is I'm doing the right things. Like I've moved to a place where I'm deep in nature, everywhere I see is trees, which for me is very good for my nervous system. I'm getting, you know, I'm doing all the things we discussed, but what I'm realizing is
Sheila Patel (27:12.323)
Yeah.
Michael Trainer (27:17.464)
based on my aura data, my recovery is still only in an adequate range. Whereas when we last spoke, for example, when I was in Indonesia, I was in the exceptional resilience range because I had such consistent practices and I was also, my stress was very low. And I think what I've realized is I want to try to find the signal in a noisy world because when I find the signal and when I'm in my practices, such as you just mentioned,
Sheila Patel (27:33.912)
Thank you.
Michael Trainer (27:47.738)
I find that my stress, my parasympathetic tone is more accessible, so to speak. I know that some people will relate from a stress perspective, right? We talked about resting and digesting. For example, when you eat, as you mentioned brilliantly, Dr. Suhas, eating and giving yourself time to digest before you go into sleep. But what about from a psychological perspective? Because so many people have issues falling asleep.
Sheila Patel (27:54.35)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (28:14.349)
Or if they are asleep, maybe have issues, which I've been having lately of getting into that deep parasympathetic rest and digest deep sleep. And I'm finding I have tons of REM where my body's trying to, my mind's trying to digest all the psychological stressors. So any thoughts that you might have around people who have issues either getting to sleep or staying asleep, more from a stress or psychological point of view, maybe some thoughts around how to help regulate your nervous system.
Dr Suhas (28:43.097)
Well, Michael, you brought a very interesting point and I think medicine is having hard time catching up with these new syndrome that people are creating and one of them is called as orthosomnia. Orthosomnia is about 40 % of Gen Z. Adults are experiencing sleep anxiety because of the gadgets that they are wearing of the rings, the bands, the watches.
Sheila Patel (28:51.949)
Yeah.
Dr Suhas (29:09.835)
everything is tracking their stages of sleep. They're trying to compete with them and they are trying getting to the degree where they're obsessing over sleep metrics from wearable devices. So, orthosomnia is one thing. There's a term that we use nowadays in medicine called as email apnea or text apnea where when people are reading an email or take their holding their breath until they read
Sheila Patel (29:23.128)
Yeah.
Dr Suhas (29:39.279)
they are not breathing and after they read the text then they start breathing. So it happens so many times during the day that you forget to breathe every time you receive a text or an email and it constantly goes up and down. So we are creating these new terms to really understand and with the social media with everything that is going on in one's life. I think number one reason for insomnia that me and Sheila have seen and the science.
definitely agrees on that is called a Somniphobia is the fear of falling asleep. The fear of being alone in your bed tossing and turning the whole global epidemic pandemic you would say of loneliness of being alone and that becomes so strong at that time when it is dark when you're worried about your future death dying health issues everything comes up.
to you at that time because all day long you're running around, you're not connecting to your own radio station. But that is the time when that FM starts regulating the brainwaves and you start thinking and worrying and becoming anxious and not able to sleep. And I think these wisdom traditions have always talked about listening to chance, doing a journal.
gratitude practices, all of those because there's nothing bad in your life as such. But when you write it down, document it, pay attention to on those positive aspects, then that negativity goes away and then you start feeling blessed before you go to sleep. And I think that is a that is a big emphasis on our in our book that we have been talking about that to dispel that loneliness, dispel that fear of darkness because frankly speaking, we are doing a dress rehearsal.
of dying every night. We are doing a dress rehearsal of dying every night. We go to the same place where we were before we were born and long after we will be gone. It is a journey into consciousness and still from a horizontal state you are vertical the next day. So you show up. And so I think trusting, having faith and anything that will create that trust and faith in divine and not
Dr Suhas (32:02.735)
trying to be too religious here, but from a consciousness perspective, I think enlivening that state of awareness is so important to be blessed and to count your blessings, to have a degree of positive emotions like love and joy and gratitude is so important and the sensory experiences that we do to regulate our mind because where your attention goes, that's where the energy is flowing. So if your attention is towards future, towards feeling helpless, towards
having a person in your life that you can't do anything about it, then that's where it's going to affect. And we are realizing that these diseases that we are seeing nowadays, they are all influenced by sleep. Whether you talk about dementia, whether you talk about Alzheimer's, whether you talk about ADHD, whether you talk about heart disease, whether you talk about diabetes, even one night of bad sleep can put you into a state of pre-diabetes.
one night of bad sleep can put you into a state of prediabetes. So I think we are painfully realizing how important it is and that time half an hour one hour before your sleep is an investment to a great next day. How to create a perfect next day depends upon that one hour that you give yourself every
Sheila Patel (33:22.912)
Yeah, I think I'll just add, you know, when you talk about we do have a whole chapter again in the book on emotions and sleep and emotional regulation, as well as trauma, and many things that in the emotional realm, you know, I think, again, we have to address all of these aspects of our human existence physical, so many physical things, right, we talked about movement and getting good nutrition and not eating late and those
you know, kind of physical things we can do. And even like doing a, an oil massage before bed, you know, kind of those signals help stimulate serotonin and melatonin and dopamine and all of the things that help us sleep. So physical, but the mental space is, is vastly important as well. You know, you, you have to address that. And we know, again, there's many studies that show that when you consistently don't get good, not, you know, quality sleep, but also quantity of sleep, both.
that it increases your risk of anxiety, depression. And then of course, when you aren't feeling mentally well, that interferes with sleep. So it's like this vicious cycle. And with trauma treatment, I think the percentages vary, but some say up to 90 % of people will have sleep issues. And so that just perpetuates, again, that sort of cycle. it's bi-directional, right?
when you are anxious, can't sleep and then you don't sleep and that makes anxiety worse. So we have to address that mental space. And there many different practices to do that. In fact, and it can be emotions or it can just be your thoughts around sleep. Like what happens when you lay down? Just asking yourself the questions. Am I scared? Do I feel lonely? So this is where cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia technically is the first line therapy. Like if you go to see a doctor, that's the number one thing they're supposed to be recommending. And I don't think a lot of doctors are.
And it can be very helpful. There are apps out there that kind of do this cognitive behavioral therapy, examining your thoughts and behaviors around sleep. And then we cannot underestimate also that spiritual realm. So, so much of depression, anxiety is what we've been talking about that disconnect from nature, disconnect from community. Everyone's all in their own individual bubbles and feel so lonely and alone, even if there are millions of people around you.
Sheila Patel (35:43.552)
in a town. so lack of purpose, lack of meaning, and then striving, striving, striving, you constantly working to get that meaning. When you're on you know, that is really what creates meaning in life. And so we have to start talking about that as well. And, know, unfortunately, I think in, in medicine, sometimes we focus on the physical. Now we're starting to appreciate that mental emotional, but so much of that mental and emotional space is about feeling connected.
not only to your self, your highest self, but to something bigger than, you know, than your individual self. And that can alleviate some of the anxiety, some of the depression that's inter interrupting sleep, the journaling before bed, you know, like, kind of getting releasing the day, you know, like not replaying the day over and over as your as you know, all night long. So I, you know, we teach a little journaling practice where you
You just write out your day, you pick the weeds, you know, you, you just put it all on paper, and then you have this nice, pure garden. So you pick the weeds and you plant some seeds, write down three intentions that you have for life. And then you water it with water the seeds with gratitude. So you can close with, you know, three, three things you're grateful for. Or sometimes just writing down quickly five things you're grateful for before bed. Again, as Dr. Suhas mentioned,
what are you taking into that, that pure potential as you go to sleep, that's what you're going to cultivate in your life. And so, again, so many of these things are bi directional, right, you have to take care of your emotions, so that you're getting good sleep, and then you have to do all the things to get good sleep. Otherwise, it's very challenging to regulate emotions.
Dr Suhas (37:34.041)
Well, two things, two techniques that worldwide in all the spiritual traditions as long as the humanity has been around is that one is breath. Is that right?
Michael Trainer (37:47.919)
Yep.
Dr Suhas (37:48.309)
In yoga we say, chale vaate chale chittam nishchale nishcharo bhave. So when the breath wanders, the mind wanders. When you steady the breath, your mind is steady. So just doing some deep breathing exercise, focusing on your breath, takes you distracted thoughts into a little bit more harmony, minimizes the traffic of those thoughts, which can be very cluttered and disorganized. So
Just breathing as soon as you feel whether you are tossing and turning as you wake up in the middle of the night, just go back and start doing few deep breaths. Just breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out and slowly that pattern resets the activity of your mind. So that is one very important thing. The other thing that also all the spiritual traditions use is the use of mantra, is the use of a sound. Is that right? So you repeat a sound and just with the intention of that sound,
that takes the mind away from those distracted thoughts. And if that mantra that you use is the mantra that you use for your daytime meditation, because that's what you're doing, is that right? You are trying to close your eyes 20 minutes in a day and trying to repeat the sound in yourself and slowly the traffic of the thoughts go down. And if you are lucky on a given day, you can slip in between the gaps of two thoughts and get a glimpse of the reality. Is that right? So why don't you take the same practice to sleep?
So when you are trying to sleep, just go back to the same mantra that you use in meditation. Every time you wake up, keep on repeating it. Take few deep breaths, keep on repeating the mantra and slowly because you have trained yourself during the meditation. Is that right? You have trained. I sit cross-legged or on a comfortable chair. I close my eyes. I keep on repeating the sound and it allows me to feel quiet and centered. You have created a neuro-associative correlation of the sound and relaxation.
Take it with you to bed. And so I think the sound, the breath, the mantra and we have given several mantra specific for body type. Is that right? We have given a sound which is very specific to Vata type, Apeta type and the Kapha type. We have also given some simple mantra. Then there are Vedic hymns and rituals to listen to certain chants. So if you feel comfortable, listen to those chants.
Dr Suhas (40:11.351)
If you don't understand Sanskrit, that's even better because then you're not focusing on the words or the messages in the words as such. just the sound itself is very calming and reassuring.
Michael Trainer (40:24.014)
Yeah, beautifully said. I'll start going ahead and death chill.
Sheila Patel (40:27.51)
No, I was just going to mention, as Dr. Suhas mentioned, the neuro associative conditioning. So we have so many tools within us and like with our breath, it's free, right? Like we can sit down at any moment and slow down our breath and, and the call, you know, slows down the mind. have humming, different types of breathing where you can vibrate the back of your throat or do some vibration that's sort of increasing that vagus vagal tone through the vagus nerve, you know, mechanisms.
And so that's all within us. And the same thing with our brain. And again, this training that we can utilize, and that includes sensory input. So smell is something that's just instantly can change our state of arousal. All of the senses can, but smell is so powerful. all of the sensory input goes right to the emotional part of the brain, the limbic brain, where there are structures also that...
that shift our state of arousal, meaning are we feeling awake and alert, or are we feeling drowsy and sleepy? And so also if you're meditating or you're doing some deep breathing during the day, anything that's bringing in that relaxation response, you can first have a smell like of an essential oil or a little spritz. So your body will associate that smell with calm. And then when you're going to sleep, you can smell that smell. It will instantly tell
you know, through conditioning, you have to do it regularly over time, then your body says, it's time to relax. Now, you can take the little, you know, essential oil or whatever it is with you traveling. So when people, know, traveling, course disrupts our sleep. can smell that smell. Your body says, it's, remembers, you know, it's time to go to sleep. So there are so many incredible ways we have within us. So we don't have to reach outside for that sleeping pill or whatever it is.
that we can utilize when we understand how all of that works.
Michael Trainer (42:27.226)
Yeah, think that all these tips are so incredibly valuable. And one of the things that I was reminded of in the book, but also I think now, and I just keep, I've resisted it, but I think now is absolutely time for, is just creating a regular, at least there's this practice of morning routines, which I have, but I've never actually created an evening or before bed routine. And I feel like,
Dr Suhas (42:52.281)
Thank you.
Michael Trainer (42:55.546)
These practices of breath, one of the things that came to me, did here in Mexico, there's a traditional technology called Temescal or a sweat lodge. And part of it being in there reminded me obviously, cause you're dealing with steam and quite significant heat, it's kind of a ritual rebirth of my breath. And I was like, you know what? I need to go back to the breath work. need that needs to be a, I need to renew my practice. This morning I started with the morning with yoga and I renewed my practice. And I feel like,
There are so many things as you mentioned that are actually free and it just requires us to commit to the practice, the mantra for example, I've done Vedic meditation. I think that's an incredible recommendation. One question I would have, I'll make it a two-part question, you can kind of go where you'd like with it, but one is, are there any other aspects that you would encourage for an evening wind down?
routine or if you will, practices that enabled you to prepare to cross that threshold. I think the way you articulated it earlier, Dr. Suhas, in talking about being alone and preparing in a way as a mini death is actually really potent because we are more alone than ever before. know, loneliness is in my view, the true pandemic at the moment. know, Surgeon General came out and said that it's the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. And unfortunately, the research is not.
good in terms of how people are feeling in regards to loneliness. But one of the things that you address and open the conversation for in the book is the spiritual aspect of sleep and the gateway it is to consciousness. I think we probably have such a limited notion of sleep. We just think of it as unconsciousness in the West, but it is not that.
It's this marvel of potentiality and this gateway to a broader truth. Can you speak a little bit about the doorway to consciousness that sleep is?
Dr Suhas (45:05.155)
Well, before I go there, you said something, all these techniques are free and they are not free. They are very expensive because the most expensive commodity right now is me time. It's time for yourself. We are becoming so busy that we don't have time for ourselves. I think the reason I wrote my earlier book, Change Your Schedule, Change Your Life, because your schedule dictates every aspect of your physiology.
Sheila Patel (45:18.697)
Thank
Dr Suhas (45:32.747)
You start your day and run around like a headless chicken and come back and crash and continue to crap up with work because the old time, yes, there was eight hours work week. You punch the card, you go somewhere, come back and you're done. But now it's your online, offline. That's what dictates your work routine. So people are working till they close their eyes. So happiness at the cost of busyness.
And the point I'm trying to mention here is this me time is becoming so precious, especially for Millennials. If time is money, they are broke. They don't have time. Okay. And so when you're talking about self-care rituals, you need time. You need to create and carve out time for yourself to understand that I'm important enough in my life than anything else.
Sheila Patel (46:08.814)
Mm-hmm.
Michael Trainer (46:08.902)
Yes.
Dr Suhas (46:28.441)
Because whether you want to earn money or wealth or happiness or success in work, you need to prioritize your health and creating that and that's an age old Vedic wisdom that understanding that I am important and I need to do something. I have to participate in my health in this Western paradigm. We have created all these huge Ivory castles of health maintenance organization where you can do anything you want and will fix your health when you are needing something.
That is not true. It's the biggest illusion that we have. If I don't participate in my health on a daily basis, you can't help anyone. So I think going back to that is important and finding this time. And poetically speaking, there are these two sisters that the Rathri Sukta in the Vedic rituals that we talked about, one is called as Usha which is dawn, that when she comes, she lights up your day and the other sister is Nisha which is the dusk.
Sheila Patel (47:01.079)
Mm-hmm.
Dr Suhas (47:27.557)
So these two twin sisters never meet each other, but they dictate every aspect of your physiology. They are the expression of Mother Divine that regulates. So one is creating a serotonin activity to stimulate you and get the things done. The other creates more melatonin, more cooling. One is governed by sun, the other is governed by moon. So the calming activity and the activities that you do at both junction points of dawn and dusk are so important for yourself.
So we always talk about sun salutations, Gayathri Mantra, invoking sun, doing all those things for the morning. We don't talk enough about the evening activity that you need to do for the evening. So that evening routine that cultivates and take you on to that evening journey. Yes, the body is doing millions of things. Okay. At that time the body is doing cleansing your brain, regulating your immune system, lipid synthesis, millions of things the body is doing when you're asleep.
But from a consciousness perspective, you need to understand that these are natural states that we can measure brainwaves to understand that this is sleeping, dreaming and waking state of consciousness. But you taking yourself on a journey with your own mind into a state of consciousness, which is going to transcend that. In many of the Buddhist work that they have talked about, Bardo's and the Lokas and they call this the yoga of sleep, where
It's actually a yogic activity which is taking you to a state of nirvikalpa samadhi where you are transcending the activities because that's the only time and this is a very interesting point in my mind. All day you try to withdraw your senses which is impossible. Is that right? They are listening to something, you're seeing something, you can't keep them quiet all day long. It's the only time in the night when you withdraw all your senses.
Michael Trainer (49:15.184)
Thank
Dr Suhas (49:26.181)
you are not smelling, you are not listening, you are not tasting anything, you are not feeling anything. Yes, all the senses are withdrawn. So when the senses are withdrawn, that's when the mind goes on to its journey to find a cosmic state of awareness. And that is when it happens rather effortlessly in the night.
then all these evening practices takes you on that journey. So now excitingly everybody should look forward to that me time in the evening because that is going to open different gates of awareness and consciousness for you. And in variety of different Vedic literature, they actually tell you that you can watch, you can witness, you can observe your sleep, you can plant the seeds into your...
unmanifest state of awareness from where you will see the sprouting happening and we see that all the time. There are so many inventions that have happened in the sleep because your senses are exhausted, you can't think anymore, you go to sleep and then you wake up with a solution. Is that right? The double helix structure of DNA was conceived in a dream state. The benzene ring was seen as a dream.
Many things, beautiful symphonies, music, you work in the music industry also. So many compositions, so many beautiful lyrics and things were conceived in that deep sleep where it is a non-sensorial activity. It is a non-sensorial activity which allows you to tap into that extra sensory perception which is close to your cosmic intellect and consciousness. So I think that me time is a great, great investment that we have to
tell the busy culture of the modern world to carve out that time for yourself. I hope that makes sense.
Sheila Patel (51:17.908)
Yeah, so beautifully said. And, you know, again, ultimately, that is why we call this book a weekend sleep because sleep as an extension of your meditation and people often ask, well, which is better? it true that this that you know, it's all of those things provide us benefits. So sleep is different than meditation. Meditation provides us with benefits for sure. But with sleep, there's some very unique aspects and things that can happen as Dr. Suhas said,
Michael Trainer (51:18.107)
done.
Sheila Patel (51:47.438)
The real thing is withdrawing your senses. And so there's a practice we talk about in the book is as you're falling asleep, you can, you know, and body awareness and there's research on just bringing your awareness to your body. That interoception and, know, sensory bringing your senses inward calms the nervous system, but also, you know, progressively like bringing your attention to your sound to touch.
But then you sort of gradually let go of all of that. And then you're bringing your sensory awareness inside. And then again, then the mind sort of goes inward. And you can experience different levels of consciousness through sleep that are unique to that action of sleep. And dreaming, there's deep sleep, dream state. There's different stages of sleep in which we're doing.
all kinds of things and accessing these different realms. And that is why it's similar to, you know, what we see with this natural sleep, especially if it's natural restorative restful sleep, same with meditation, what do we see? We see healthier gene expression, we see regulation of the nervous system, we see brain changes that are consistent with, you know, better cognitive processing, memory, all of, you know, all of these brain functions,
coordination of your hemispheres, all of these are the outcomes of having practices that allow us to withdraw into that realm of pure potential, that spiritual realm. And so, you know, I think treating sleep as a sacred act like that is, is, gives it the importance that it deserves, you know, and as Dr. Suha said, once you start thinking about it that way, it's almost like you can't
not respect that time before sleep, you know, and carve out the time to, to allow yourself to go into this pure potential. Yeah.
Dr Suhas (53:47.381)
And Michael, you been talking to so many bright minds in this field of consciousness for such a long time and I really respect your journey and bringing out this wisdom for millions of people. one thing that you and me and everyone would agree and the science proves it that 100 % what we experience is not real. Nothing.
Nothing that we see, that we feel, that we touch and taste is not even real. Nothing of the sensory experience is real. It's completely different, which is species specific. The cognitive biology clearly tells us that there is no such thing as mind and perception and sensory experience. So what you are experiencing when you are awake, is that real or when you are sleeping and experiencing is that real?
And I think that is the Vedic message. Yāniśā sarva-bhūtā nāṁ tasyaṁ jagartī saṅyami That's what Bhagavad Gita says. So an introspective sage is awake when the rest of the world is sleeping. And so can we even accomplish that? Because we get so carried away thinking that this is real. So whether the dreamscape and the dream world is the real or what you experience during the day is real.
and that witnessing that dispassionate detachment quality that we all talk about from a mindfulness perspective and understanding this and slowly separating yourself from clutter, entering into a watchful, witnessing, observer kind of a mode during the day and the night. As you train the day, that becomes easy in the night. As you train yourself in the night, that becomes easy in the day also. So I think the message of the book with Awakenslee
is to slowly train ourselves to not to take our senses too seriously and not to take our mind which can be a tool for a bondage or could be a tool for liberation and slowly preparing our mind for the tool to liberate ourselves and not get confined and stuck with only sensory experiences that we experience during the day or the night. And many times and you have noticed this that when you are
Dr Suhas (56:04.107)
in New York and planning a big event, then your senses are all wired and that's what your night experience is going to be. When you are in a cave, you're on a mountain top and you're surrounded with a forest, then that clutter goes down. All the sensory experience during the day is less. So the nightly experience is much less because what you see is what you experience in the night.
So that's why people have gone and lived off the grid and in the forest and deep in the caves and somewhere remote. And that's the reason because you train your senses not to do that. And it's so difficult to be in time square and not to see anything, but be in a different state of awareness because senses are helpless and we have to slowly train them. And I think cultivating that experience that will allow you to feel comfortable with yourself. And I think if you can do that,
that solves most of the challenges with the sleep.
Michael Trainer (57:00.647)
absolutely beautifully said by both of you. And one of the things that I think that we are doing, especially in this assault on our stim, of stimulation on our nervous systems is trying to use some of these ancient tools to quiet the noise. As you said, I think back to yogis who could literally be near breathless for prolonged periods of time because of their advanced knowledge of the breath or tummo breathing in the Tibetan tradition where
know, yogis could literally be in the Himalaya and sweat through sheets because of their breath. And there's so much advanced science that we have forgotten, if you will. And you guys are both messengers bridging this ancient awareness into modern life, which is so needed in this day and age. I highly recommend everyone listening, picks up a copy of Awaken Sleep. It's an incredible book.
I will link below in the show notes. I'm going to actually re-listen to it again. I bought it on my Audible so that I can go back and when I do my exercise, I love to tap in, but grab a copy to read, grab a copy to listen to. I'll link also to both of your respective works. You both have an incredible body of work also beyond the book that people should tap into.
I'll say Sheila and I have more recently met Dr. Suhas. did an Ayurvedic retreat with he and his wonderful wife at Chosen, which was incredible. I never even told you this Dr. Suhas, but that Vedic astrological reading literally changed. It caused me to settle down actually. And I followed my astrological line and a lot of things change. And I go back and I re-listen to that quite frequently. Maybe my final question actually,
I don't know what the equivalent is or if there is an equivalency, but I remember in my reading, because I was born during eclipse, I know tomorrow's an eclipse and in Chinese astrology, we're moving from the wood snake into the fire horse. I don't know if there's an equivalent in Vedic astrology, but do you have a sense, you know, this is a big macro question, but one of the things that you tuned me into was there are certain places where our expression is more,
Michael Trainer (59:25.443)
certain places where the seed that is us flourish more beautifully in the garden of life, astro-cartography. As you think about the timing that we're entering into collectively, is there any insight that you have? I don't know if there's a Vedic perspective around this new chapter that we're moving in astrologically and any corollaries it might have to how we can use our sleep or our dream time to more effectively express ourselves during this next chapter.
Dr Suhas (59:56.365)
Well, it begs another podcast for this question, would say. Because think about it, I will leave you with a couple of simple things. So, all the spiritual traditions happen to be in desert, okay? So, you talk about Islam, you talk about Judaism, Christianity.
Michael Trainer (59:56.423)
will be my final question.
Sheila Patel (01:00:00.746)
you
Michael Trainer (01:00:01.188)
Okay, okay, I'm happy to do another one.
Dr Suhas (01:00:22.505)
arid vegetation, devoid nothing to see, completely dry, hot desert climate. And it creates a sensory deprivation of its own. To create tuning in, you look at the night sky which is completely lit with stars in a desert. So there is something that the geography affects us, the quality of our life and our mind. And we talk about it from an Ayurvedic perspective that for
for a Vata person to be in a hot, dry, desert, devoid of vegetation is problematic because they need something colorful. They need something green for them to experience. They need moisture to counterbalance that Vata. For Pitta, they want to be in a cool, greener lake, serene, outdoor setting, mountain top, which is really good to deflate their egos when they see these rampant elements of the nature that
takes them away from their egocentric behavior sometimes. And for a Kapha person, they want to be in a dry, warm climate of desert or lack of vegetation where you have to sweat more, be active, stimulation. So there is a logic to the qualia and the qualities of everything. Is that right? We talk about the food, where you live, what you do, the work, profession, it's quality, nothing else. It's just the qualia and the qualities that affect us.
And the same qualia quality is extended to Jyotish. This planet is dynamic, stimulating, this planet is obstructing, this planet is supporting, this is bright, this is intelligent, this is legit, all of those. We attribute these qualities to the planets, to the zodiac signs, to the transit and to the location. So an astrological chart, a medical astrology conservation,
gives us a better insight on the person, their doshas, their qualities, their immune system, the state of their mind where they are innately sattvic, rajasic, tamasic. And what would be a better description for their life? What kind of relationship they should have? What kind of jobs and professions they should attract and seek to do? And what is the best place for them to live? So one more time, another complimentary session for you, Michael, whenever you're ready.
Dr Suhas (01:02:45.025)
Okay.
Sheila Patel (01:02:46.486)
you
Michael Trainer (01:02:49.414)
I would love that, Dr. Suhas. I've actually told, I don't know how many people, but many, many people how consequential that was to my life. So I would be deeply honored. I will say, I just want to thank you both because I think this work is, it's really truly important right now. You know, I think without going into great detail, I think a lot of us as humans have lost our way.
at times with all of the conflicting signals. And it's hard in a noisy world to find true signal that reminds us of who we are and how we can find our way home, so to speak, metaphorically. And you both are guiding lights in that regard. You are guiding us home to the places that bring us life and reminding us that this is a daily practice and that there's tremendous potentiality.
beyond our rational minds. And I really, really am grateful for your work. And I really recommend everyone please tap in, start with awake and sleep, and then dive into both of your worlds because they're beautiful places to be. So thank you both for your time.
Dr Suhas (01:04:07.513)
Thank you, Michael. I appreciate your work. Thank you.
Sheila Patel (01:04:07.918)
Thank you, Michael.